Genetics... help... ::drowns::

LakotaWolf · Post by **LakotaWolf** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:47 pm

Okay ;} hehe. I took a genetics class a while ago, and I really didn't think I was this stupid / had forgotten everything, but apparently I have some confusion XD

I would really like my Schattarneki to have a simple genetic code, seeing as they have a few traits that are pretty unique to them, as far as I can tell. It is, of course, ultimately up to the person who draws their (hybrid) offspring whether or not to include the traits, but I wanted just a general guideline for them. Especially since Bryn-saru just flew at the Lodge on Kilandaia, and Xalia asked me about the wing-spike trait XD I was like "ummm... ack?"

So anyway.

Schattarneki have this trait where their wings don't grow in until adulthood. While they're behbies, they just have little wing-spikes protruding from their shoulder area:

And the wings grow in when they're adults, and then they can fly normally. I at first had the notion that the wing-spike trait passed on to about 60% of the offspring, but then I wanted to get all complicated/realistic with it, so I drew up some Punnett squares and messed with Mr. Mendel's genetic laws...

But this means that in even a first-generation egg clutch (Schattarnek x Non-Schattarnek) ALL of the offspring will display the adulthood-wing-growth wing-spike trait. Only a hybrid x hybrid clutch would have offspring that WOULDN'T display the trait. But I guess this is only true if I make the wing trait dominant. Of course, if I make it recessive, again only the hybrid x hybrid cross would have offspring WITH the trait.

Should I just abandon Mendelian genetics altogether and run with something less... realistic? XD Or leave it entirely up to people who are drawing the offspring? And, of course, the trait only *really* shows up if the person draws a hatchling stage...

Just could use some advice :}

BTW, I have this fear that might be irrational... that the Schattarneki are far too boring and plain :{ I know they're floofy and the hatchlings are cute, but I think that's about all they've got and they might not be too appealing for interbreeding :/ Should I spice them up a bit?

Skysong · Post by **Skysong** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:06 pm

Hm, I was gonna suggest that you make the trait be a combination of dominant and recessive (Aa), but then I realized that it would be difficult for purebred Schattarneki to pass on and that my suggestion didn't make sense XD; So unfortunately I can't help you out there.

I would like to say that I think the Schattarneki are utterly adorable, and I hope that they have many hybrid babies with my Enkeyn ^__^

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:09 pm

I think they're wonderful...don't change them! If you do change them though just add interesting abilities, I think they /look/ perfect just as they are!

Honestly, the way we breed all our dragon species together probably isn't very realistic, but in the long run, do we really care? No way! It's fun and we love it!

For the sake of genetics, if you want the wing spike to be a dominant trait then make it a dominant trait, if you don't, just give us a percentage to go by, like you gave me...I did the same thing with some of my dragons and other species for Kilandaia...like the Garyki whose offspring have...shoot, what did I say?...a 1/10 chance of having wings even though most Garyki are wingless...it doesn't really transfer into Mendel's formulas for genetics but it makes sense when you consider what the Garyki were bred from...

So anyways, they're your babies, make them how you want...just let me know what you decide before I start drawing!

Silver Midnight · Post by **Silver Midnight** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:09 pm

I like the trait, personally...so what if you get an aa? Just spikes? 0.o Or just wings?

Hmm...well, I personally like the way they look. I like their feet and stuff but there aren't really any..unique features. I just don't know. I like them the way they are!

Kiara · Post by **Kiara** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:18 pm

Well it would get slightly more confusing if you did this, but maybe you could try:

AABB and aabb and then combinations of the two.

Make AABB/AaBB/AaBb/Aabb the trait for wings, but not aaBB or aaBb. (the non-winged aaBB/aaBb would be what is termed as a "dominant recessive trait", and basically because you have two recessive a's then they cancel out the effect of B.)

I can't remember the percentages this produces offhand, and I really should be in bed already since I have an early start, but it might be what your looking for? I'll think about it tomorrow in my breaks between lectures, and if the above doesn't work I'll try and remember something else that does... but you could look at it in the meantime maybe...

Might be totally useless, but it might work. You might end up with 75%:25% though. As oppose to your 60%:40%.

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:42 pm

I run the Ferilons as pure genetic creatures. You've got it right: 75/25 for pureness on that gene IF you assume that the gene passes dominantly. That's how it goes.

If you want to introduce other features, try this:

Each feature you'd introduce *may or may not show up* and that's one particular gene. Call it F (because... I do it with ferilons and they're easy for me.) Now, I use a more complex system than this but, here's how it would work.

F = *no show*. f = *show only if double*. So any hybrid (or pure, whatever) that appeared with ANY F in it, would not have the feature. But one which happened to inherit only ff from its parents, WOULD have *a* feature (or a selected feature).

So parents with pure FF would *never* show any odd features. Parents with mixed Ff genes *might* (25%) have ONE offspring that has it showing. ONLY pairing THAT offspring with one which *also shows* a f trait genetic may have offspring that shows.

That keeps the traits *rare*.

Here are my pages:
http://www.geocities.com/ferilon_genes/gene-basics.html

It'd be up to you how you'd select what kind of traits to use. Myself? The ferilons are built of these:
http://www.geocities.com/ferilon_genes/genechart-2.htm

(not in real order)
G - general fur/covering (sleek, combo, heavy, long, furless, armored, different fringe, scaled)
M - muzzle trait (blaze, fringe, beard, no mark, antennae, horn, 2 horn, finned)
E - ear trait (no fringe, fringe, long ear, big ear, tiny ear, round ear, plumed, lop)
N - neck trait (no fringe, line, full, base, front, sides, pattern, full back)
B - body trait (no fringe, line, full back, plumed, belly, sides, pattern, shoulders/rump)
L - leg trait (no fringe, line, base, top, full, wide back, plumed, front)
T - tail trait (no fringe, tuft, line, full, spade tip, two tails, tailless, short tail)

Then F mutations, which include Wings, Color mutations, Extra parts, Fighting mutations (covering a huge variety of piecesparts of claws, tentacles, armors, etc).

R mutations, Tribal genes, govern full-body changes like 'aquatic' 'avian' and others (so wings instead of forelimbs, finned feet, blubber, beak, feathers, etc.)

Go ahead and steal what you like from the chart if you decide to use it, because Ferilons *are* okay to be bred with almost anything we make here IF size is not an issue.

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:52 pm

*pokes Lakota* Have you decided what to do yet? 'Cause if I finish my homework before Sunday I might actually start drawing for The Lodge this weekend... >.>

LakotaWolf · Post by **LakotaWolf** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:42 pm

Oh! Sorry, didn't know you were waiting on this XD My bad. Anyway, I think for the Lodge clutch... just run with a passage rate of about 60% for the trait. If that's okay with you XD I think eventually I might run with something like what Shard's got for the Ferilons... just have to write it all up. But for now, a straight percentage is fine.

Thanks for all the advice on this, BTW! Lot of great ideas and options XD Now I just have to write it up...

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:10 pm

It's actually gotten me thinking about the dragon genetic projects again that were going on a while back. I'm probably going to set up a webpage with my perceptions of the different dragon-style genes *as they could be reinterpreted through the ferilon generator*.

So
G = general: scales, hide, furry, etc
M = muzzle: horn, spikes, fins, etc
E = ear: no ear, finned ear, etc

... like that. It'd require more options as basics I think, than my 8 genes per feature of the Ferilons, but perhaps that's not the case. (based on rarity, an 'other, rare' category could be the ultra-recessive, and lead to another full 8-part gene...)

Skysong · Post by **Skysong** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:15 pm

Shard wrote:(based on rarity, an 'other, rare' category could be the ultra-recessive, and lead to another full 8-part gene...)

I love having rare genes that lead to other big genes XD The Samanayrs' genetics function like that with stuff like wings..

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:20 pm

Yup yup. The whole General Fur ferilon trait is actually 15+ genes, since it also has 'different kinds of fringe' available - up to 'many' different types, so yeah.

The key really is to find a system that you can add to without *changing* anything. I've had to change certain Ferilon genes 2 times and it's been hard because older versions of course are *not* the same as newer ones and cannot be bred without some serious considerations to what they 'are now'.

I also think having a visual chart (like my page) while difficult to make and maintain is a *great* way of expressing how genes pass or don't pass. 'Look on the chart' makes it easier to see if the gene your creature is expressing will be overshadowed by its partner's.