Need opinions...

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:57 pm

Okay, so I have to draw a character model sheet for my drawing class. This doesn't even come close to being as awesome as Drakiera's is, but yeah...

Okay, the first image is what I submitted as a rough draft and I just didn't like it at all. I've gotten a good review on it, but I'm not satisfied so I started over on the front view. Could you guys please tell me what you like better? Or just critique the heck out of both of them? Feel free to tear them apart...all I'm really getting is positive things in my class and I really want some /constructive/ criticism here! Thanks in advance!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/ ... Sheet1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/ ... icSaia.jpg

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:33 pm

Of the first pic, with the two views, I think the basic thing is that she's about half a head too short. She's just about exactly 6 heads tall, which while possibly 'realistically' correct, artistically she could stand to be a bit more tall. Her hands on both views are quite small. Her neck's a little thin for her body.

In the solo one, the nose is a bit soft, but I suspect you knew that

Since it looks more like we're seeing her from a higher angle, the height and proportions look better, even though she's still 6 heads.

Maybe think about the seams of her clothing - where are they? (where would they be) and how would they crinkle things?

Anyway - hope that helps! I think they're all good, cute.

Silver Midnight · Post by **Silver Midnight** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:04 pm

Shard's right--though I think what she's missing as far as height is in the legs. The leg area probably needs to be a bit longer, about half a head to a head. I also like the eyes better on the second, seems to me a more "serious" style, yet still with your specifically unique flair. The eyes on the first remind me of *gag* Sailor Moon...^_^;

LakotaWolf · Post by **LakotaWolf** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:36 am

::agrees with Shard and Silv:: I think mainly what you should work on is definition. Draw the character naked first (NAKEDS WHEE) to be able to clearly define joints, limbs, etc. and then drop the robe outline over her. That should also help with clothing seams.

Also, remember that the average human's wrist-to-elbow length is about the same as their elbow-to-shoulder :3 Your cleric's forearms look a tiny touch too long.

I do like the second one better - you have more definition to her there, and I can see the body shape under the robe better :3 Good work!

Her hand looks a little manly in the second one though o_o; slenderize it down a bit, make it a bit less squarish, and you're in like flint!

Mystic Dragon · Post by **Mystic Dragon** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:59 am

Yeah, what Lakota said. I find that drawing a char nekkid first, getting all the proportions right, then adding details makes me far happier with the end results. Though I still hate drawing guys. *snarls at the lot of them*

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:22 am

See, whenever I draw a character nakid first I can't bear to put concealing clothes on them because I end up being too proud of the work I put into their anatomy! *sigh*

I know the hands, especially her right one, are too big on the second one, but they're way too small on the first one so I think I over compensated...

Being short I tend to draw people a little on the short side and I don't think height is a requirement for a heroine...I want her to be 'average' and let's face it, the 'average' person isn't tall...

I do like the eyes a lot better on the second one, they're closer to realistic though still too big to be truly realistic.

And seams? No clue how to draw them...or even imagine them...plain and simple I suck at clothing! Help?

Silver Midnight · Post by **Silver Midnight** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:25 am

http://www.polykarbon.com

They have good tutorials, including on folds of clothing.

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:38 am

Been there before...awesome tutorials...but what about static poses? It seems like all the really good tutorials out there are more for action poses than static and three of my poses have to be static, with only one being an action pose...

I know I don't have enough wrinkles in the first one but I tried to get a more realistic feel to the second one...did I come close or are my wrinkles in all the wrong places? (I think part of the problem is that I've never really seen someone wearing the type of robe she has on...pictures and real-life examples are usually what I go by...

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:54 am

Fashion magazines.

Really good references, and you don't even really have to read any of the 'articles' since mainly you'd be going for the ads.

Katasev · Post by **Katasev** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:37 am

i dunno how helpful this'd be for you, but whenever i draw static poses ( which is most of the time because any other way my proportions get wonky ) i always go by joint/muscle and gravity for folds. ex: a few little folds where the round part of your shoulder meets your arm, some for the under arm, a couple at the elbow... etc... ^^; is that helpful at all? i could doodle up summat if i'm just being confusing... that happens a lot to me.. >>;;

Katasev · Post by **Katasev** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:41 am

also (just thought about this) no matter how short/tall you are, the 6-anna-half rule usually applies. you'll notice the taller people get, usually the bigger their head is. X3 their hands are also usually bigger, and so on. unless you're like me and dad, where you have stubby legs... >>; then yeah, we're only about 6 heads high.

Post by **Dray** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:28 am

XD Everyone's said just about all that I could possibly come up with that's helpful! Anything that I could add would be little nit-picky things, and they've prolly been covered already, too!

X3 Hee, if you find you're having a hard time with putting clothes on the images you draw, you could always scan what you have and /then/ clothes-ify them. That way, at least, you might have a backup. Heck, if you can change the lines to blue, print them out like that, and draw overtop of them, then scan again, you can get rid of the blue and have your outlined, fully clothed image, as well as your pencil-drawn nekkid character! Yay random-stuff!

:3 Keep it up, anyhow. You're doing lovely!

LakotaWolf · Post by **LakotaWolf** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:59 pm

If you're planning on drawing lotsa humans in the future, three books you might want to invest in are "Drawing the Male Nude", "Drawing the Female Nude", and "Drawing Human Anatomy" all by Giovanni Civardi.

I bought all three of these a while back and they've helped me immensely. The man is an artistic genius :p His pencil drawings are astounding, and the books are full of sitting, standing, laying, etc poses to ref from. I don't draw humans, but since my anthropomorphic critters are based off of human anatomy, the books are great for me :}

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:37 pm

I've read enough tutorials (and done enough sketching in my class) that I don't really have any trouble with the human form...I just have trouble with clothing that I can't see...I mean, if I could get a robe and make my boyfriend wear it....or take a picture of me wearing it...I could so draw that robe...but I just can't /see/ how it should fold in my head...

Does anyone think it'd help to add a sash? Like a simple rope around her middle to cut it in half? I think I might be able to pull off better folds and bucklings in the robe if there was some break in the middle...it's the straight down thing that's throwing me...

LakotaWolf · Post by **LakotaWolf** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 pm

Yish :} it would add a nice visual "spice-up" to the outfit as well :D

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:48 pm

Okay...here's the final version of sheet 1...comments? Criticism? I can still edit it a bit if need be...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/ ... rFinal.jpg

And yes...the back view kinda sucks in comparison to the front...but I'm tired of messing with it...

jess d · Post by **jess d** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:11 pm

I'm probably not the best judge, but I think it looks pretty good, and the back view doesn't look bad

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:41 pm

Very nice, actually. That all works well.

LakotaWolf · Post by **LakotaWolf** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:43 pm

::agrees::

Only one thing I'd suggest, and it's really a nitpick more than anything - on the front view, her hair is sectioned off neatly, and each section is pointed cleanly. On the back it looks a bit ragged. I think if you even out the hair sections in the back and make them smooth-pointy-ended as well, it will add cohesitivity and make it look more like it's the same person :D

But otherwise, NICE! I like the addition of the belt a lot. Are you going to ink this or leave it pencilled?

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:59 pm

I'm still debating on the inking actually...I'm terrified I'll ruin the shading if I ink it...but I do think it needs to be inked...so I don't know...

And yeah, the back of the hair started out sectioned and it just looked really weird so I didn't keep the definition when I started shading...I can try to put it back in though...I think I was approaching it wrong...

LakotaWolf · Post by **LakotaWolf** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:34 pm

okay this is like... worst example ever... but I just grabbed the nearest ball-point pen and some paper and sketched hair.

It's all deformed since I can't draw humans, even from the back, but you get the point :} Try lumping it all into one point near the bottom, but add lines going upwards to indicate sections. Or, as in the top one, have sections branching out from the main part of the hair, but make sure the sections curve in the same direction as the main part of the hair. If that makes sense.

Also, if you can afford them, I recommend buying some Sakura Micron pens for inking. They are SO WONDERFUL and they come in all sorts of tiny line thicknesses. I have a ton and they're all I ink with :D

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:58 pm

I have Micron pens that I use all the time for inking...it's just the shading I'm afraid of messing up...as you can see my attempts at hatching don't really turn out too neat...heh...

Silver Midnight · Post by **Silver Midnight** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:18 pm

Hmm, there is another--slight--problem with proportion. Generally shoulders are about 2 heads across. Hers are about three, making her shoulders really look rather too large for her and throwing off the whole scale (FFXI has an issue with this), hence making her head look small.

In addition, in females the hips are as wide or very nearly as wide as the shoulders. You're about three-fourths to a full head off there.

Lastly, the curve of her butt looks a bit low on the back view. Where her sash is it should be up higher, it looks like it's spitting on or just above her hips. The waist is actually higher than you'd expect from modern clothing styles. It's actually right where your ribs end, which her sash looks lower--on a female, it should be right at the narrowest point of their body giving them the "hourglass" shape on full-bodied females. Which your girl looks rather robust to me. X3 It suits her.

Please note, I have these same problems, it's just something I noticed on yours and thought I might point out to help. The folds look very good, and I like her face, and the costume design. =) Very nice character concept.

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:33 pm

I know...I have a tendency to draw the shoulders too wide...*sigh* I just don't want to erase and redraw anything now...*L*

I was kind of assuming the rope was below her waist...walking around in heavy robes in the heat she wouldn't want to plaster it to her middle by putting the rope around her waist...nor would she want it too tight, so she leaves it on the loose side and it settles around the top of her hips, hence why she doesn't have a classic hour-glass figure, because the robes are hiding it...

I so don't want to have to redraw her /again/ (this is my third attempt)...but there are some issues I should fix...*sighs, ponders*

Silver Midnight · Post by **Silver Midnight** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:42 pm

Don't just "jump into it"--draw as you feel you want to. Otherwise it becomes like work. Art should be fun. =P At least sometimes.

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:50 pm

Yeah...I still have to redraw the side and action poses so I think I'm going to leave those two as they are...unless I feel inspired tomorrow or something...*L*

Post by **Dray** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:05 pm

I think Sil got everything that I was seeing problems with. If her sash isn't hanging around the top of her hips (would help keep it in place, that way it doesn't slide off as she's walking! But.. whatever you like! XD) Anyways, if it's not at the top of her hips, then maybe you ought to raise her butt a wee bit? Right now it really looks like it /is/ on the top of her hips.

You could probably easily fix the image by extending the bottom of the robe--especially the back view, instead of fiddling around with the butt. It'd make the legs look a bit more in proportion, for your style. Widening the hips would prolly work, too.

<rant>XP You need practice drawing characters fifty times, just drawing and erasing. /That/, in my philosophy, is what makes for some awesome stuff. Sitting there and saying "it's pretty enough how it is, I don't wanna touch it!" is all well and good, but there always IS something you can do better with it. No one, NO ONE is perfect, even the best of artists have things they can change, if they get off their asses and do it. That, I think, is what makes the best art the best. Said artists look at it, then revise, redraw, redo. Just... expanding upon. Makes life interesting.</rant>

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:57 pm

Dray wrote:<rant>XP You need practice drawing characters fifty times, just drawing and erasing. /That/, in my philosophy, is what makes for some awesome stuff. Sitting there and saying "it's pretty enough how it is, I don't wanna touch it!" is all well and good, but there always IS something you can do better with it. No one, NO ONE is perfect, even the best of artists have things they can change, if they get off their asses and do it. That, I think, is what makes the best art the best. Said artists look at it, then revise, redraw, redo. Just... expanding upon. Makes life interesting.</rant>

I know, but the assignment is due tomorrow so if I end up redoing it again and again and again (keeping in mind that I have never been able to redraw the same character and make them look the same each time) I'll never get it done in time to turn in. At this point it's more a matter of 'is it good enough?' than trying to make it perfect. Based on the review I got from my prof on the first version I turned in, this will get me an A, which is my only goal right now... I'll work on perfecting my human drawing skills when I don't have a deadline looming!

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:54 pm

Okay, so thought I'd show off the final versions that I turned in! I raised her butt a bit on the back view...tried to narrow her shoulders a trifle on the front view...and well, you guys haven't even seen the side and action views so tada! Yes, the lighting is supposed to be kinda odd on the action pose...the orb on the end of her staff is pulsing with magic and hence glowing very brightly...so I did my best to shade so that's the light source....not sure I really pulled it off well though...heh...anyways...I probably won't be messing with these anymore because I've already turned them in, but if anyone wants to post comments I'd appreciate knowing what could still be improved!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/ ... Final1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/ ... Final2.jpg

Mystic Dragon · Post by **Mystic Dragon** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:13 pm

That's really improved, Xalia! The only thing I have to add is that the legs are still just a touch too short. Maybe add her feet showing from beneath the robes.

The action pose is my favourite. A lot of expression there.