Remember Shiolar? (Poll Added)

[Xenoqueen]

AKA Ktrenal? Once a great artist and productive part of the Nexus, up until he threw a most massive multi-part shitfit and stormed out in a rage, insulting us as he went, and so had the door of BANNED slammed behind him, back at the beginning of 2007?

Well, I got an email from him today, and he wants back in.

Hi,

I applied for membership of the Nexus last week, under the name Ktrenal. The account I registered with has been deleted, presumably because it was surrounded on all sides by spambots, and my username does look a bit like a random jumble of letters... Assuming that I'm not completely unwelcome in the community, something for which I would not blame you or anyone else (other than myself, of course) if that were the case, may I recreate the account and not be deleted?

Thanks,
Ktrenal

The main page of his website ( http://www.ktrenal.com/ ) has also been changed from the RAGEQUIT it once was.

For those of you who remember him and the way he departed... do we give him another chance?

[StarFyre]

I was only on the edge of the shitstorm that hit, but...

While I like the things he created, and his general input to the Nexus, do we really want someone back who insulted practically all of us (and wasn't he the one who stormed off screaming about becoming a great author while the rest of us wasted our lives here on the Nexus?) to varying extents, then proceeded to leave the nastiest note on his homepage directed at (nearly) all of us? (And aren't the few that it wasn't directed at gone as well?) He did a pretty good job burning the bridges behind him at that time...

I mean, he sounds logical again, but how many of us thought he sounded logical up until he suddenly exploded?

He created a precedent with that ragequit. I'll respect the decision if people who were more directly insulted than me vote to let him in, but I think I'll almost always be waiting for that hammer to drop again.

So, I guess I'm tentatively against it. As said, I'm not going to throw any hissy-fits of my own if he does get back in, and logical reasoning can always persuade me =P I'm just a bit nervous that everything will be fine for a couple months, maybe a year, then BAM, RAGEQUITTAKETWO!

(Or maybe it's because I'm biased against most boys in this community. We've had such stellar luck with them -- maybe all the female!crazy drives them batshit?)

[Shard]

I'd like an apology from him before he can stay, but I'd like him back. I love the art, love the dragons honestly. But the way he railed on me for completely unrelated things *here* was unacceptable ... honestly I was shocked to see that he'd been accepted as a mod at pony island... not the kind of volatile personality i'd want in charge.

But I'm for giving a chance, with the condition that an apology is forthcoming. I'd noticed his name signed up, so... yeah. *shrug* hope he understands how to be more mature.

[Kitsuneko]

I'm definitely for letting him come back, though I think I'm one of the few people he didn't insult/upset. But honestly? I think I'd be for it anyway. Forgive and forget and all that.

[Banned User]

I'm not against it, though I did take all his dragons back one he quite...>.>

*shrug*

[Unyko]

I'm with Shard. With all the insults flying around the time of his departure, an apology is the least he can do to try and make amends. >.> However, this place has been creepin' along towards the shady side of dead for a while now, so new (or even old) muses might help breathe some life into it again.

*shrug* So long as he understands that it'd be something of a distrustful (or possibly conditional; personally I wouldn't give him another chance if he screwed this one up as thoroughly as he did in '07) return. I mean, everyone is gonna have their eye on him, no one is really ever really gonna relax around him again.

[JKatkina]

fff. I'm in the minority here, but I'd actually rather not see him allowed back in. He left in a hissy fit a five year old would be ashamed to own up to, and dead or not, the last thing we need is someone that childish hanging around.

[Xenoqueen]

Keeping you guys updated:

Whoops, you're quite correct in that the deletion was due to spambot overload. They've been pretty rampant lately and I get a little delete-button-mashing-crazy when they build up like that. I'm glad you emailed me to bring my attention to it.

Due to the manner in which you left the Nexus several years back, I am currently seeking the community's opinion on letting you have another chance. I myself believe in such second chances, but you deeply insulted many people back in 2007 and so I am leaving the decision up to the community. This may take a day or a few, but I will get back to you when a consensus seems clear.

~ Phoenix

Hi,

I had thought that might be the case. I was surprised at the quantity of spambots, actually. The Nexus seems to attract them. I considered emailing you earlier, but I figured you were busy, and didn't want to pester you.

I also fully understand that allowing me to return will require a community-wide discussion. I was actually expecting something of that nature. If the community decides they don't want me back, then I'll be disappointed, but I won't ever bother you or the others again.

If it affects the decision at all, it was my intention that my first act upon returning to the community would be an apology to everyone. I know that I don't really deserve a second chance. I acted like an idiot, and although I do have reasons for the way I behaved, it was nevertheless not justified that I acted on those reasons in the way that I did. For that, I'm truly sorry, and that apology will stand regardless of whether I'm welcome back or not.

Ktrenal

Like I said to him up there, I do believe in second chances and would probably let him back in if it were solely up to me, but at the same time I'm not sure I want him back in at the same time. Yes, he is a distinctive artist and I most definitely enjoyed all his creations, but he made a lot of people mad and hurt a lot of feelings. I know I personally would be on the "watching him very warily" team. His departure last time was so bad that I didn't just delete his account, I banned every IP of his I could get my code on, and that wasn't just a whim.

My two cents, but still polling for community consensus.

[aireona93]

My vote would be give him his second chance, but make sure he knows that he will be banned permanently if he starts any sort of trouble again.

[Dray]

My vote (in all seriousness)

A hardline "PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, NO."

I know I was joking about letting him back for the lulz, but think about this.

Shiolar showed up the first time way way back when and basically broke up EVERYONE with his retarded shenanigans about Alskyr (making Danach as a blatant 'fuck you!' to the folks back then.) He promptly disappeared.

He came back parading as a different person. He tried to avoid being noticed as being a different person until he was called out by Sil.

He then proceeded to epically bitchslap most everyone in the Nexus and LEAVE FOREVER (after causing several people that I quite liked to ACTUALLY leave forever, like Lakota and Skysong :c) to drink a bottle of wine every night and write his epic novel.

After which he sat his ass on down to become a pony island mod. T_T PLEASE.

SERIOUSLY.

I don't care if he's coming back without the false pretense of being another person. (Fuck, if I know Shiolar he probably HAS signed up as a completely different user name so that he can monitor what's going on at the Nexus). Chances are that he will stay here for a few days, weeks, months, whatever without much fuss.

Then SOMETHING will set him off again and he'll re-burn any bridges that were tentatively built back up.

I know that we're all not especially assertive people, but this man is a manipulative, abusive mo-fo. He did draw nice dragons. I admit that. But he was quite rude, and I don't think that he should be allowed back in here. Even if I'm not around that often, I do not trust him to be nice to you guys. I expect him to slowly push you around more and more often until he goes back to being his normal arrogant self again.

Please do yourselves a favor and don't allow him back in. He's proven that he's not a reliable person. He's proven that he can be downright abusive.

So yeah, that's my rant. :\ Take it with a grain of salt if you want.


eta:

If it affects the decision at all, it was my intention that my first act upon returning to the community would be an apology to everyone. I know that I don't really deserve a second chance. I acted like an idiot, and although I do have reasons for the way I behaved, it was nevertheless not justified that I acted on those reasons in the way that I did. For that, I'm truly sorry, and that apology will stand regardless of whether I'm welcome back or not.

Dude. This is the workmanship of a professional bullshitter. I've seen people speak this way who had NO intention of following up on how they behaved. He is the kind of person who knows what needs to be said to get what he wants. He is a manipulator. This is what we need to hear in order to push us towards "ohhhhh well, I SUPPOSE that we're kind of goofy for holding a grudge. I SUPPOSE that he means well, let's give him another shot." It's classic.

He is not apologetic for what he DID. He is apologetic that what he did was caught and that what he did really pissed us off.

If he's not allowed back I highly doubt that he will be genuinely disappointed so much as 'disappointed in us' for not falling for this.



I hope this doesn't come across as too driven by anger or bitterness, but this guy has a freaking record. I don't think that it's wise to forgive and forget someone who is a repeat offender.

[Guest]

Well, I wasn't involved in any of the crap that happened, at all. In 2007 I think I was still gone, as I had been for many, many years. Obviously, my opinion won't be as relevant as those who actually dealt with the crap he apparently did (no clue as to what exactly happened, but it sounds bad).

But anyway, it's been 3 years. I'm all for not being burned again by people who have been proven untrustworthy in the past, but I also believe in allowing people who want another chance to be re-evaluated. My opinion, admittedly, is probably biased by the fact that I don't know this person, but I think he seems humble enough and in any case, we're on the lookout for crap from him anyway, right? If it happened a second time we'd probably be nowhere near as horrified (or, not "We" but... well, you get the idea)

Maybe we should put up a poll?

[Shard]

I don't want anyone new alienated, and Dray you make an excellent point. I do think that it would be disruptive - particularly under a different name and then spring it upon us, or to show up and then turn out to be the same jerk.

*sigh*

I'd like to believe in the goodness that some people have, though I'm thinking you may be right on all counts. I just don't like holding so much of a grudge, this long. >_> now, if knux pulled it... lol.

[JKatkina]

I'm not sure it counts as a grudge if it's based on logic and evidence rather than baseless feelings. >.> What would we gain by getting him back? Some decent art, and a potentially disruptive presence. While it's been proven that drama seems to make our population count spike (at least for a day or two, lol) I'm not sure his B.S. is worth it.

I mean, as far as I know, he's directly responsible for at least one other person -- and an artist better than him, no less -- disappearing pretty much for good. We gain nothing by bringing him back that isn't already here, and we risk him making an ass of himself again and scaring off good newbies.

[Shard]

I agree with that. The more I think on it the less it'd be sensible to allow someone with the kind of highly volatile personality back in, knowing that's how he is. Now if only we could get some other old folks like lakota back, that'd be better...

[Guest]

I just have to ask since people are saying it, do we know for sure that in three years he hasn't chilled out and grown up? (or gotten on meds? XD) I know me personally, at least, I've matured tons in three years.

[Dray]

I would be more happy to see a million exuberant and mildly obnoxious newbies over one Shiolar any day. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed his dragons (at least the ones that weren't filled with extra limbs and tentacles... but that's just a personal preference. XD) but it's all in the personality. He doesn't play nice. Didn't he also drive Sil out in part as well? That would make three people that he's driven away for sure. I remember Ty mentioning that he had severely tried her patience two different occasions, I think he's in part why she didn't really get Flurry stuff done. Also me being so fucking fed up with him and his shenanigans really soured helping out with the flurry entirely.

Ty was having some trouble getting enthusiastic about that year's Flurry. I offered to help. Ty agreed. When Shiolar found out, he flipped his shit and went on about us going on behind his back and he was going to help Ty first and how dare she pick me over him (even though he hadn't even offered yet?!) and I told him, basically, to sod off after he wouldn't accept my offer to let him help me. :\ And then HE LEFT FOREVER but not before insulting everyone, pretty much. Very passive aggressive sniping in addition to some other things.

Also: for all the population spike that we get while drama is going on, there's a pretty sizeable dip thereafter. We can't sustain ourselves that way.

[JKatkina]

I admit I don't know if Shiolar's done any maturing in the last three years, but I will say I'm basing at least part of my reluctance on the correspondence that Phe is showing here. Dray's right, his wording is that of a manipulative human being saying what he thinks we want to hear, rather than someone who is truly contrite.

I don't know. That's probably colored by what I remember of him, but it's a crapshoot to hope he's matured with no real evidence to support it, and frankly, I don't think Shiolar's contributions are worth making that kind of gamble.

[Guest]

Good newbies like me?

Just inserting a small opinion here: This dude sounds crazy. I remember hearing about his old website, reading the awful goodbye message, and thanking my lucky stars that I was MIA when that all went down.

Even if the Nexus is slow at the moment, I'd rather have slow then freaked-out chaos.

GIRL POWER! heh

[Xenoqueen]

Valid points all, Dray. Voiced my reluctant side perfectly.

I'm looking over an old thread in the super!sekrit!invisible!ModBoard in which it was discussed what would be done with Shiolar when this shit first went down (banning him was unanimous by me, Shard, Mystic, and Xalia). Found this old quote from DNS, who'd been communicating with him off-board.

Honestly, jkat? You don't want to know. :/ but you guys have a right to know what he thinks of you.

Okay, the first time he went on hiatus, it was cuz dray was running the winter flurry and he didn't like how she was running it or something. He said she wasn't giving him any input on anything, and i can't verify that either way becuase the only thing he showed me was a pretty nasty pm he'd just written to her. I'm willing togive dray the benefit of the doubt, though, cuz in all the time i've known shiolar, he's been kind of snippy like that, and takes things the wrong way.

later on, somehow someone got into an argument over whether or not it was ethical to feed live food to snakes. I dunno how, i wasn't paying attention, and when shiolar poked me online to bitch about it, i was REALLY intent on NOT getting involved. so he ranted about ethics and how it's wrong to feed live prey to snakes, and I told him that I have no opinion becuase I don't WANT to take sides and I haven't done any research on it myself, so how am i supposed to know the first thing on the matter? but that's when he said he was taking his pages down for good. He apologised to me about the breeding thing, at that point.

THEN kitsuneko hatched her most latest clutch, the three subclutches one, and I poked him online to tell him they'd hatched, and that they look good so he should at least take a look. And he did, and he sounded like he was considering coming back, at which point he started ranting like mad about how he might not come back, though.

He said, and these I remember quite explicitly [they were literally these things, though the wording might've been slightly different. I got too upset to save the convorsation.] that he has nothing in common with any of us because A- he's british, B- he's the only real adult here [27. shard is older, isn't she?], C- he's the only one with a real job and any ammount of disposable income, and D- that none of us have any morals. And I let him rant, becuase once again I was big on not taking sides, though it was annoying. I decided to say something, though, at the last bit, becuase that's jsut not true.
He said that no one here has any morals becuase no one objected to feeding live food to snakes. I mnetioned that everyone here probably has a moral objection to things such as murder and rape. At which point, he said something along the lines of feeding live food to snakes was worse becuase animals are defenseless but humans could defend themselves, and that the humans who get raped and murdered are doing stupid things and deserve it [he didn't actually say deserve it, but the way he was arguing implied it strongly. the stupid things bit is an actual point he made].

That's when i started getting nasty, we exchanged insults,and i signed off, and he blocked me.We haven't talked since. Mercale blocked me too, i think.

I said all of that so people can get the most information and draw their own conclusions, becuase maybe someone else knows something that i don't know, but fitsi n with my info, orsomething. I wrote that as i remember it, taking care to leave as little bais as possible. I left some stuff out, but that's the basic important stuff.

So yeah. I think I may have fucked his returning up for the rest of you more than it had already been fucked, for which I'm terribly sorry. but those are his reasons, and that's what happened.

...forgot about the live snake-food thing. Yeesh.

[StarFyre]

I just don't like holding so much of a grudge, this long. >_> now, if knux pulled it... lol.

Knux was a completely different version of this -- he went stalker on the group. Shiolar at least just threw a hissyfit and left, Knux went creepy, after completely destroying the old board, then hunting the new board down and joining as like... AvengingAngel57 or some other "lol-wut?" name. Also, from what I recall, Knux doesn't have the slickness Shiolar tends to show (as Dray pointed out).

And given the logic that Dray's pointed out (especially things I forgot about, likely because I was only here off and on during those times), I'm going to firm up my opinion that it's a bad idea to let Shiolar back in.

((BTW, Dray, thanks for the details I couldn't recall, and putting my basic feeling of "uh.. this could be a very bad idea..." into better words than I ever could))


EDIT: Okay, if Shiolar was 27 at the time, can we really expect his basic personality to have changed much? (I was operating under the initial impression that he was at least my age (so 19 at the time), if not a bit younger) Meds can only do so much, and there's always the dreaded "I'm off my meds" instances.

[aireona93]

I didn't realize how destructive Shiolar really was, cause I wasn't a part of that fight at all... but I think taking him back might be too big of a risk, judging by the last couple posts.

I mean, things are slow right now, but I think that they will pick up again with summer and whatnot; and I would hate to lose anyone else because of him.

:/

[Guest]

Okay, so I missed all this completely, and I barely remember the guy from before all this. That aside, I'm a big believer in second chances... but, am quite decidedly on the fence in this instance. I'd like to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but he does sound perhaps like a negative influence (for want of a better word). I'd be happy whatever is decided though, but I would support a "final warning, last chance, any funny stuff and your out" warning to him if he is allowed back... I'm a bit of a lurker at best at the moment anyways though, so, yeah...

(NB. The statement that made me post was the whole "British" thing... That makes him not fit in why? I'm British, born here, never lived anywhere else... I don't feel (and have never felt) that I didn't fit in... Mediocre art or otherwise. -randomish-.)

[Cy]

I'm sure my opinion isn't all that important... but after sitting here, reading through the responses, and remembering how everything went down...

I think he should be allowed back on probation, and that any drama starting gets him immediately banned again.

Because I know what it's like to see things coming together in front of you, and thinking you have the chance to move on to something great, and saying things in the heat of the moment to someone that you shouldn't, and then having those things fall apart after you've already burned the bridges to your old town. And then you're left in this white-out space of nothingness with nothing to belong to.

Even though sometimes I think about quitting this group, just deleting all of my dragoning folders and moving on, because at times it seems like such a waste of time, I then remember all the things it's done to help me. There have been people here when I needed to talk or rant, or wanted to understand something. It's helped with my writing, with my art, with my web design. It's played a pretty big role in my life for 7 years. And that kind of stuns me because nothing holds my attention that long.

Even though if some great noveling offer was handed to me right now, I sure wouldn't be insulting people on here and thinking I was better than anyone else, I would still be like "Yeah, found something better, moving on now." But as a human, if my feelings were hurt by someone here, and something better came along, then I would probably rub it in their face with insults. But if that deal then fell apart... I'd want to come back here with my tail between my legs and be like, "Yeah... about that. I'm sorry." And it would take more than that of course, but I'd still hope I could come back to one of the few places and communities where I even slightly fit in. Some things can't be taken back, or forgotten, but they can be used to build guidelines for the future.

I'm just saying. It's not like I'll be angry if you don't allow him back. I'm more on the fence leaning towards letting him back. If that makes sense.

[Kitsuneko]

Perhaps I'm over-idealistic, but I'm not the type to turn someone away if they're trying to make amends, genuine or not. Seeing as none of us are mind-readers, we don't know that he is going to do the same stuff he did last time. I don't know, like I said, I was pretty much on the periphery when he left the last time, and didn't really hear any of it until later; I prefer not to take sides.

On the subject of new people: I don't know what effect it would have on the spambots, but perhaps the restrictions on the forum could be cut back a bit? I know if I'd just come across this place and had to sign up (was there some sort of monitoring thing as well?) just to even see what's going on, I'd hit the back button without a second glance.
Of course, I learned with Whiterock that if you don't advertise, you're gonna be stuck with the same dwindling population.

[Guest]

Oh, just an addition I forgot to mention. Personally I read the conversation between Phoenix and him as potentially genuine. Perhaps it is all b'shit, but that isn't how I initially read it. (Though, I again, stress my memory of the guy is poor... and, I tend to assume the best until I know otherwise with written things).

[Guest]

I don't know. You guys are all making really valid points, but I have a really hard time changing my vote to no on him. On one hand, it seems most people here who have dealt with him before are "once bitten, twice shy" and that's very understandable. I also really agree with what StarFyre said about his age. His being 27 means there's no "teenage OMGcrazies" to give him the benefit of the doubt with...

Still, I'm bothered by the thought that if we say "No," he could just make an account and infiltrate anyway, right? All we can count on is his obedience to our decision. So it seems like, to me, if he gets it in his head that he wants to "interact" with us bad enough, well, he probably just will, right?

[Cy]

Still, I'm bothered by the thought that if we say "No," he could just make an account and infiltrate anyway, right? All we can count on is his obedience to our decision. So it seems like, to me, if he gets it in his head that he wants to "interact" with us bad enough, well, he probably just will, right?

Exactly. So why not just knowingly let him in, verses him creating a mask, as he did before. Because his style is pretty recognized. I think that's something that goes for a couple of people here who have come back under new names and been recognized by their art style.

[Dray]

He said some pretty lame things to me back in the day. I remember trying to be patient with him at first but then eventually telling him to sod off because he was getting pretty damned rude. I'm going to hunt through the PM's to see if I can find them, though it may be that they've been punted out by newer PM's. Dratted small storage space!

In any case, it is probably me that is the largest problem (I mean, aside from the 'feeding snakes is a sin!' deal, which I was only very peripherally involved in, if at all.) considering he was gunning for something that I had stepped in on. Again, when that happened I had no idea that he was hoping to do the flurry. It came as a complete surprise -- I was really excited to draw these awesome dragons so I was gung ho about getting started. I can't really say anything else for sure until and unless I can find backup of the actual conversation. Long story short, I seem to be gone and will continue to be so until at least May. If you guys do decide to let him in, and he's good, then maybe him being re-introduced while I'm not around will help things along?

I still think that he is pulling exactly the same kind of deal that an abusive friend would: coming back bowing and apologizing, then getting set off because the other party(ies) aren't mind readers. :\

(I had forgotten that Nessie had been arguing with him. I wish she had stuck around a little, too... I liked her crazy critters!)

ANYWAYS! Off to go digging for evidence!

eta: Pfffft, hah, yeah no. The earliest PM I have is from 2009, and nothing in my savebox was Shiolar-related. I just didn't think that it was important enough to save evidence of at the time, unfortunately.

I've been going through old chat logs with friends, and apparently the gist of the encounter was that Shiolar had gotten really angry that I had snagged helping with the Flurry for Ty before he mentioned anything. He tossed me some rather impressively insulting PM's about that. (Woops, I didn't realize that he had already planned things out even though he hadn't told me or Ty at the time!) For a while things were going okay, because he said he'd at least like to help. I said, 'sure, that works!'

Then he started demanding to colour a white, which was basically the most important dragon to come from the Flurry. I replied with a 'no way, you were being an asshole to me earlier, why should you have that privilege now?'

Shortly thereafter he told everyone that he was quitting because he had a novel to write and also that he was better than all of us. :\

Scanning through old chat logs, it's becoming more apparent to me how much I really didn't like the guy. He would make snarky comments when he didn't get in on a clutch that he wanted. He would send in flyer/chasers and then revoke them randomly. He very frequently spoke on a condescending and patronizing fashion that was not really very kind at all.

Then again it could just be that he grated on my nerves personally. All I have left right now are gmail chat logs where I was venting to other people about how frustrated I was with him at various different points during his stay at the Nexus. He was a recurring point of drama and tension for me. Again, it could just be me. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it was partially me that was the problem, but the thought that he ran so many folks out of the Nexus argues that he was in no small part simply a grating personality that didn't know how to play nice.

I try to be civil and on equal terms with other people. I have slipped up a couple of times in the past (hopefully much less now then back then), and been snarky. I don't think that there is a single person in the Nexus though that I butted heads with more than that man.

On a side note: Shiolar probably already has a second account that he's been lurking with and most likely has had it for some time. He never took down his dragoning pages, so it's likely that he expected to come back at some point. The condescending 'eff you' note that he left as his index page for three years and only recently removed seems like a pretty good indicator to me that he is only willing to make amends when he feels like it will benefit him.

So he's probably reading in on this conversation right now. Don't know if that swings your vote, but it is a thought.

[JKatkina]

Okay, so we've established that Shiolar sees -- or at the very least saw -- himself as superior to us ethically, socially, and (for most of us) in terms of nationality. That he's an accomplished liar (wasn't his first stint in the Nexus under a female name, because he was too self-conscious to be a male in a group of females?), and that he has not once, but TWICE rage-quit the Nexus when he didn't get what he want. And THEN we have the fact that he's driven off good, decent Nexiians simply by being present and irritating.

Tell me again why he deserves a second chance? Bearing in mind that this will in fact be his third chance? Other than "well he might be a good guy despite it all!"

I wasn't even involved in anything that he was throwing hissyfits over and I still say that letting him back in is a bad idea. He looked down on us. He made it pretty obvious. The thing is, 9 times out of 10 I'm willing to forgive and forget. I believe that people are fundamentally good. I believe strongly that people can change, and giving people second chances is an important part of helping people grow. But in this case, every bit of my gut is screaming that letting Shiolar back in is just going to result in the exact same thing that happened the last two times. Whether it takes longer or shorter, it doesn't matter. Nobody did anything to him that would warrant the reaction that we all collectively got from him. So he didn't get to draw a clutch that he wanted to. Leaving Forevar is a totally disproportionate response to something as simple as that, and his correspondence with Phe implies very strongly to me that he still thinks he was right to get that angry over something so trivial.

I do not believe that he is simply a good person who made some bad mistakes. I think he knows exactly what he did and I think he knew it while he was doing it, and the ONLY REASON that he is apologizing now is that it serves his purposes. I mean, for christ's sake, he left his nasty little message up on that page for years -- if he had really been remorseful, if it had really been something he wrote in the heat of the moment and regretted later, he would have felt bad and taken it down MUCH sooner. The only reason it's down now is that he knows it would hurt his case for getting let back in.


Anyways, also: Just because he could make an account and infiltrate doesn't mean that we should just let him in anyways -- doesn't that mode of thought illegitimatize the idea of banning anyone, ever?

[StarFyre]

(I had forgotten that Nessie had been arguing with him. I wish she had stuck around a little, too... I liked her crazy critters!)

The last I heard from Nessie, something like... last summer, actually -- as far as I can recall, she was back in Maryland with her father, being financially fucked over by her mother (college funds and the withholding there-of), then proceeded to get kicked out of her father's house by her brother to live in her car or whatever crashpad she could find... ... On the small plus-side, though, she had landed a job as a pet-groomer, and it was looking to be something (relatively) stable.

Gods only know what sort of situation she's in right now (and, sadly, not because she's unintelligent, or lacks motivation or anything, but because she's a young adult with no support, no place to get herself in order, and no adult references to help smooth things along).

Anyway...

On the subject of Shiolar's website, I ask you all to consider this.

Ktrenal isn't exactly a common name -- anyone who knows Shiolar would link that name to him. For three years, www.ktrenal.com, the first (and nearly the only) page of his site to be easily found from the outside, was a personal f-you to us. Three years of him *paying the cost* of a webhost ($60 a year, minimum. That sort of money isn't exactly pocket-change, whether or not you have a job, especially as the economy of the world in general has been slowly tanking.) expressly to say f-you.

That sort of note is not "professional". Nor is it "adult". I don't know about how it is in Britain, but here, those sort of shenanigans can get you looked at once or twice by people you're being interviewed by. And not in the good way. There will always be a permanent record of that note up online somewhere, in caches, in the archives, etc.

Now, there's (interestingly enough) two ways to see this. He never took those dragons or anything down. Never. Which means he either intended from the start to come back, oooorrr... left them up, but purposely "locked" behind the entry-page, as spite. (Because, if I remember correctly, around then was the first time we started really getting into tracing genealogies, so having things *that close*, but locked away, was supposed to act as a "haha-suuucckkkaasss!" moment)

... c.c;; That's all I wanted to add at the moment. Starfyre needs sleep... and for her blasted headache to go away. Grawr. Headache.