D&D Dragons - Chromatics/Metallics/Other?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:09 am

Just something I've been thinking about...

Would there be any interest in a Dragonry that has a focus on D&D dragons - similar to how people use the Pern fantasy world and offshoot their own Weyrs for breeding Pernese?

I might have to do some number tweaking for the growing up phases, as by-the-book they live to be Great Wyrms (1,201+ years) before succumbing to The Twilight or Death. With white dragons going for 2,001 years and golds up to 4,400!

I don't know how time works around the Nexus! Would it be okay for these type of dragons to live so long?

...Babble, babble! Mostly I want to draw some D&D dragons and thought they might be some interesting new blood for the dragoning masses.

I think I would go down the line and make a clutch from each color, then I could start breeding diff colors together to make new-mutts!

With the option of delving into the weirder dragons between clutches (Rust, Shadow, Radiant, Pyroclastic...some really fun ones in the Draconomicon).

Unyko · Post by **Unyko** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:54 am

O.O YES PLEASE.

Seriously, I love D&D dragons more than pernese (<.< ... >.> ... *ducks lynching party*), so I'd be absolutely ecstatic to see a dragonry of this sort.

And the age/time thing shouldn't be a problem; there are some dragons floating around now that can live on indefinitely, and timelines that are.. sorta jumbled. :3

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:07 am

Haha, sweet! Thanks for the interest.

I guess my next question would be how to handle the clutches, since Pernese already inherently work with a bonding mechanic. Should I introduce a bonding mechanic to the D&D dragons, or have it more Sponsorship until they get old enough to run off on their own?

I mostly ask because the only other options are to do giveaways, but I'd like a little more effort into them even if it's a candidate stat sheet. ...Or I can just do giveaways cause those are easy! Wondering what other options there are?

- Candidate stat sheet
- Giveaways, first come, first serve
- Giveaway, roll a die to determine winner
- Giveaway, pick a number, closest wins

Unyko · Post by **Unyko** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:04 am

Hmm.. personally, I think they'd be more likely to sponsor, than bond, but if anyone wants their char to bond, you could always have something like bonding scrolls available.

As for the giveaway vs. candidate thing, you could probably get away with asking for candidates. Really it's up to you, giveaways really are much easier, but then you miss out on the fun of matching dragons to characters. :3 Or you could do a mix.. sorta like what Dray does with her BWR apps: people can just sign up, but if anyone sends in a character, they are more likely to get a rare/sought after/whatever dragon than just the giveaway apps. *shrug*

*skitter off to work* I can't wait to see how this pans out.

Post by **Dray** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:27 am

Bua ha ha ha, I know that JKat is going to see this when she wakes up and leave a wet-spot on the chair. XD She's been thinking about doing D&D style dragons for a long time.

Me, I would love if there was an element of dice rolling involved. Required some simplified stats be made for the bonder/sponsor (Maybe the usual 'roll dice or spend X points to determine your strength/charisma/wisdom/etc.) and then match dragons up by rolling checks to see if the candidates/bonds are up to them (say you have a strong red... you'd line the candidates up and roll a strength check against the dragonets, and whoever gets the best bonds that'n. X3)

Also, http://dicelog.com/dice
Hee hee.

Whatever you pick, I'd love to see it! :D

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:34 am

I'm gonna...go to bed here soon (I swear, really!). My sleep is all flopped again, the curse of working graveyard shift too many years!

I really like the idea of some dice-rolling chance in there.

Maybe take the system of you get 20 points for a char and can place (up to 10) in a slot: Sta, Str, Agi, Cha, Int, Wis

So a sample sheet would look like:

Sta: 3
Str: 4
Agi: 1
Cha: 6
Int: 3
Wis: 3

And I can play with some dice and see what dragon fits who bestish...it's a good idea Dray! Thank you, gives it a little more flavor then "FREE!"

Hee, there is so much Pernese around here I was so curious if people also liked the D&D dragons. Cause I'm hella partial to the blues myself!

Can I ask one quick question - Where did you get the tiling background for your Bower site (or did you make it)? I've been hunting for simple and there are so many terrible, terrible graphics out there. I am now blind.

Post by **Dray** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:38 am

(Oh shi-- I should be going to work seen minutes ago. Luckily my boss called me from Disney freaking Land when he was supposed to be working at another property, so I don't feel too bad. xD)

I ganked the pattern from Squidfingers: http://www.squidfingers.com/patterns/

though I changed the colours and such. I should give credit, I knew I forgot something. :x

Pernese is what the Nexus grew out of, though that doesn't mean that we're not just dragon nuts of any flavor! (I'm waiting for someone to 'breed' Windstone dragons or something, using the statue-images as parents. XDD)

My favorites have got to be the crazy gemstone dragons. >.>" I like classic Reds and Blacks, but I have an Amethyst character that has swung my heart. X3

Xenoqueen · Post by **Xenoqueen** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:46 am

Oh my goodness DnD dragons YES. I love DnD based computer games and the one time I tried an actual DnD campaign, it was with some dragon-based sourcebook and my character was a Silver, and I love playing Neverwinter Nights with a modded Copper Dragon Disciple. XD

I would TOTALLY turn my various NWN characters into candidates for DnD dragons, oh yes.

Keilin Alyr · Post by **Keilin Alyr** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:20 am

Heh, I get too excitable when I see good ideas. This post is gonna turn into a wall of barely-readable peanut-gallery text, I swear.

But I've been playing D&D since I was 14, since 3rd edition was shiny-new, and the dragons were always the best part. You have no idea how much I'd love this. *shiny eyes*

Out of curiosity, given the planar dragons you listed, it sounds like you have access to the 3.5 Draconomicon. Are you going to be centralizing your dragons all on the ship, or will you be incorporating habitats and lairs and all those egg quirks in some way?

I remember planning something similar to demiplane-habitats back in college before I realized I can't draw, my webpages are hideous, I'm unmotivated, and I've never finished a project in my life and scrapped it. XD

As for the side questions you've asked:

Regarding lifespans, I've seen a good number of immortals and dragons who had a clutch with their great-great-however many times great-grandchildren. I also don't see a lot of dragons dying due to timeline, or aging kept track of. *whistles innocently* I don't think the lifespan of even the golds, silvers, and bronzes should be too much of a problem for most of us.

As for bonding... I know there are rules in the 3.5 Draconomicon for handling true dragons as cohorts and familiars, but short of the white, the brass, and maybe the copper I don't see the D&D true dragons bonding humans in the Pernese sense. I could see them accepting sponsors and caretakers, but not being subservient.

I've always seen the Pernese dragons almost as beasts of burden in some regards. They're so dependent on their bonded human, and they were created from fire lizards to serve humans. Whereas even a newly hatched true dragon wyrmling can present a formidable challenge to an equal-level party.

Also, even a true dragon raised by humans maintains their fierce independent streak and pride. A silver dragon acting as a paladin's mount is practically a character in their own right, and they will make their whim perfectly clear, even if it contradicts that of their beloved ally.

End of the day though, I'm the peanut gallery. Any good idea can justify true dragons being adopted out, partnered up with, or allied to humans on a broad scale.

I mean, the D&D-esque world your dragons originate from could be suffering from a terrible apocalypse and the dragons are fleeing from it. Or the world has gone through some kind of massive reality shift and mythical creatures are no longer welcome. Or Bahamut and Tiamat (the traditional true dragon gods) have died and the dragons don't want to take chances with whatever monster killed their deities. Or demigod slavers are taking dragons captive and this race of powerful people, both good and evil, are taking dragons offworld to save them or profit from them.

And those ideas aren't even all that good. XD

Also, really quickly, the traditional stat order for D&D characters is Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha for 3.0/3.5 and Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, Cha for 4.0 (they reworked the saving throws/defenses), with 10-11 as the base average. I'm sure the point-buy tables for both editions are roaming the 'nets, though I could hunt down my manuals for easy screenshots.

I also just realized I am an insufferable loser. Then again, that isn't news. =)

delyar · Post by **delyar** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:32 am

Hard to follow up Keilin's post of sheer nerd. :P

Really, Neo, don't feel bad about branching out from Pernese. The majority of us are running non-Pernese sites at this point anyway, and new variety is always fun. :D (Plus DnD dragons WHEE.)

JKatkina · Post by **JKatkina** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:04 pm

AAAAAAAAAA--

Yeah, Dray is right, I just about wet myself. XD D&D dragons are my first dragony love, though I didn't know them as such at first. I would be so stoked to see these awesome critters running around the Nexus.

Sponsorship makes much more sense to me than bonding. Bonding is kind of arbitrary anyways in any species not deliberately designed to bond... and honestly, a lot of the time I find it easier to conceptualize why someone would want to sponsor, than bond, especially in the case of the kind of strong, independent character that would do well raising, say, a classic Red!

That stats rolling idea is a nifty one, too. :3 Oh, Neo, do this, do this!

Yakima · Post by **Yakima** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:07 pm

Heh, D&D was my inspiration for Treval Dragonry...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:54 pm

yes!
Do gem dragons too :D

jess d · Post by **jess d** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:33 pm

I'll have to reread this better tomorrow, but I vote a huge yes! I would love to see some D&D dragons... especially bronzes, silvers and blues.... mostly bronze >.>

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:44 pm

Wow, thanks for the replies guys!

I'm working on a simple site at the moment (just filling in the info now!), instead of using my wiki space. It will be separate from the Mobius Ship as a Dragonry, more of a fantasy setting to fit the loose D&D theme called Vortex Keep - run by an old magic user/thief hiding between the dimensional planes.

Keilin Alyr:
Haha, it's all good. I love seeing other people being geeky, D&D is definitely an old school guilty pleasure of mine, for the fun dragons and monsters.

I have access to the 3.5 Draconomicon along with the newer 4.0 Chromatic Draconomicon and some select Dragon Magazines with expanded dragon articles. I am fudging the system a little (since I'm not actually running D&D here) and would like to use dragons from all across the different versions!

The initial eggs will be stolen/sold/plundered into the Keep and hatched for Candidates there. I will be keeping one from each of each color for myself for future 'purebred' clutches.

The age thing I think will be okay, I think I read an old thread here about not trying to think about timelines and the Nexus. I'm just gonna...sweep that under the carpet here. They live a long time, hehe!

You hit the Pernese on the head I believe, while I like them, I always see them more like the engineered beasts of burden like you mention. They aren't bad, but they rely wholly on their bonded. I see the D&D dragons as smart, thinking individuals that are perfectly okay with being independent. I am going to go with sponsors rather then bonds for these dragons, someone to watch over the wyrmling as it grows and be an equal partner rather then owning an individual. That leaves it open storywise for the sponsor and dragon to grow into their relationship, they could be partners in crime or a dragon-rider warrior with his friend dragon - I like open ended stuff like this!

Those are some really good prompts, I am 100% with cheesy. I might drop in some kind of disaster in the D&D world, or dragon-god involvement for flavor.

Yeah sadly I don't have too much (if any) experience with the newer 4.0 game play. I want to keep the "stat" sheet fairly superficial, no huge real D&D sheets here for sponsors. I want to make it easy for non-D&D playing folks to whip up a character. I like the idea of working from a number-pool (20) rather then rolling dice for stats - simply because it's a lot harder to cheat with a pool. People can reroll bad rolls on a sheet and move on. ;3

Thanks for your thoughts!

Kat - I'm doing it! I just have to fill in information right now, its all elbow grease.

Simple Points so far!
- Simple point based stat system for candidates based on D&D stats (used for linking dragons to choices)
- Not held at Mobius Ship, New location: Vortex Keep
- Dragons are sponsored rather then bonded
- Dragons are highly intelligent individuals with thier own feelings and motives
- Pulling across 3.5-4.0 and other D&D realms for dragons

At the moment the list of dragon types looks like this:

Chromatic
- Red
- Green
- Blue
- Black
- White
- Brown
- Gray
- Purple

(The last three are from the newer Dracomonicon for 4.0, old names were Sand dragon (Brown) and Deep Dragon (Purple))

Metallic
- Gold
- Silver
- Bronze
- Brass
- Copper

Gem
- Amethyst
- Crystal
- Emerald
- Obsidian
- Sapphire
- Topaz

Ferrous
- Chromium
- Cobalt
- Iron
- Nickel
- Tungsten

Planar
- None yet

Other
- None yet (some random neat dragon types that don't fit anywhere)

The first clutches will be the traditional Chromatic and Metallic dragons. Then I'll see where we are and goof around with other potential dragons. There are a lot of dragon types to play with so a nice long program in the future if I have the drive for it!

I guess I should roll a d20 and decide what color to start with huh? >:D

JKatkina · Post by **JKatkina** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:10 pm

Ohh, I had forgotten about the Ferrous dragons. >D Man, Neo, now you've got me looking forward to those, too. I kinda want to get me some metallics and ferrous...es... and breed 'em with firelings, do some research as to what effect, if any, that would have on flame colors. :D

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:32 pm

I think metallic/ferrous + firelings would make some amazingly beautiful clutches! I whole heartily endorse this - and since its some time down the road...I wouldn't even mind doing a collab in the future with you if you wanted. >:D

JKatkina · Post by **JKatkina** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:51 pm

Oh my god, a resounding YES! please! That would be simply glorious. :D

Cacopheny · Post by **Cacopheny** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:23 am

... didn't there used to be Steel dragons, too? :: remembers having one in Psycrowe's game a gazillion years ago XD :: That character was awesome, I liked him....

As much as I am not likely to actually send you any candidates, due to business with rp instead of solo writing (weak, I know), I, too, prefer DnD dragons to Pern ones =D So thumbs up to you!

Kendarath · Post by **Kendarath** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:01 am

I'm also going to throw in my "I love DnD dragons" comment.

*also owns the 3.5 Draconomicon*

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:19 am

Steel was ancient! I think that was from the 'Council of Wyrms', one of the first real adventures that let you play as dragon characters instead of humanoids.

There were a couple from back there, yellow and cloud dragons too.

There's a bunch of neat looking less-used ones I can always call up for when I feel like a break in the traditional, such as faerie dragon.

Hell, I'm even contemplating some freebies along the lines of monster "pets", Displacer beasts and such. Just being silly.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:57 am

Am I going crazy, or was there a D&D race of Amber dragons? I swear up and down there were amber dragons but google seems to disagree.

fake edit: oh here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(Du ... &_Dragons)
damn that's a lot of dragons.
apparently amber dragons aren't really "true" dragons, which makes sense as I remember them being described as small, burrowing creatures that lived in the woods.

Post by **Dray** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:59 am

XD I remember doing a search on ruby dragons and apparently they went extinct, but their patron deity (or the one bad-ass Ruby that still remains) is a real jackass. Some of these are going to be quite fun... they don't all have images pre-made for them so you can design your own. :D

Also, having tentacle-panthers as your site's equivalent of flits or rukels is so awesome. XDDD

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:37 am

I think I got this worked out, don't worry it looks scary, but it is really simple. You have 6 stats and a pool of 20 points. You can't exceed 5 points in a stat and you must have at least 1 point.

I avoided rolling dice to determine stats as in D&D because it is just too easy to cheat a reroll if you don't like a low number. This way it always has to add up to 20 in the end.

I made a rudimentary list of hierarchy for the stats similar to the WoD gaming system examples.

Sponsor Stats
20 points
Max 5 points in one stat
Min 1 point in a stat (must have at least 1)

Strength (STR): Strength is a measure of muscle, endurance and stamina combined
Constitution (CON): Constitution is a term which encompasses the character's physique, toughness, health and resistance to disease and poison.
Dexterity (DEX): Dexterity encompasses a number of physical attributes including hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, fine motor skills, balance and speed of movement.
Intelligence (INT): Intelligence is similar to IQ, but also includes mnemonic ability, reasoning and learning ability outside those measured by the written word.
Wisdom (WIS): Wisdom is a composite term for the characters enlightenment, judgment, wile, willpower and intuitiveness.
Charisma (CHA): Charisma is the measure of the character's combined physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism.

Strength
1 - Has trouble lifting heavy objects, running a mile, or climbing a wall. Little use in a physical fight.
2 - Can carry a small sack of gear a short distance. Prefers to let someone else do the hard work.
3 - Average, strong but has trouble lifting heavier things. Knows how to fight.
4 - Works out, knows the best way to handle a weapon and how to use it.
5 - Very strong, can lift heavy objects or excels at running long distances.

Constitution
1 - Sickly. Frail, easily succumbs to sicknesses.
2 - Seems to get sick easy, but not too often.
3 - Is a healthy individual.
4 - Rarely gets sick.
5 - Healthy and in top physical condition. Very resilient against sicknesses.

Dexterity
1 - Can't walk a straight line without help. Clumsy. Bumps into things.
2 - Sometimes trips up on their own feet.
3 - Can run, jump, skip or dance with no problems.
4 - Light on their feet, graceful.
5 - Acrobatic, able to bend with ease. Excellent hand coordination for catching or manipulating.

Intelligence
1 - Never went to school.
2 - Essential knowledge of everyday things.
3 - Knows whats worth knowing and a little more, enjoys learning more.
4 - Higher education, a learned person. Can hold one side in a debate.
5 - A scholar.

Wisdom
1 - No commonsense, often in trouble from it.
2 - Knows better, but often fails to judge a situation correctly.
3 - Knows when and when not to do things.
4 - Able to read crowds, knows when to trust a gut feeling.
5 - Can judge the outcome of a situation at a glance.

Charisma
1 - Antisocial or simply unattractive. Has a hard time making friends.
2 - Sometimes lucks out with social interaction, but mostly lost in the background. A loner.
3 - An all around person, makes friends easily.
4 - Easy to talk to, good at manipulating.
5 - Talk of the town, beautiful, a silver tongue.

Sample
STR: 5
CON: 3
DEX: 5
INT: 2
WIS: 3
CHA: 2

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:20 am

http://neogeen.com/vortexkeep/index.html - Not everything is finished yet, but I'm working on the first clutch. >:D

Still need to hash out the abilities since there are a couple diff types. The ones all dragon breeds get, the ones specific to colors, and then a special list where YOU get to decide what to pick.

The 'Flow' of how I'll run this place will be:

- Clutch announced (size and type) [Wyrmling]
- Open for Sponsers
- Sponsers announced [Receive Juvenile]
- Require paging by date and stats abilities chosen
- Dragons not paged sent to graveyard
- Paged dragons receive rolled abilities or items (spells, metabreath, magic items) [Receive Adult Image]
- End Clutch

With one further step past 'Adult' for story-apps only which will be a 'Wyrm' template (very powerful older dragon).

So, you get to see the young dragons. You win the sub-adults and when you page that you will get the adult image.

Sounds okay?

Post by **Dray** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:18 am

Sounds freaking awesome. XD I can't wait! (Oooh, Wyrm template! :D)

>.> I kind of want to set up a stats-y RP in the RP section. XD So little time, so many things to do!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:34 pm

Oh I am all aflutter with excitement.

Keilin Alyr · Post by **Keilin Alyr** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:15 pm

First off, the site looks gorgeous. I can't wait to see everything in action!

Your example stat array reminds me of a wizard I played once in 3.5. Poor thing had exactly 1 hit point at level 1, so my combat strategy was cast magic missile, then run/play dead/wonder how I'm not actually dead instead of just bleeding out. Again. *chuckles*

Just as a side observance, I definitely appreciate the practicality in using the Storyteller ranking system instead of rolling, and I've always liked the simplicity and cleanness, but mixing the two systems is a little... jarring to me.

I apologize for being a twit, but would you be willing to entertain traditional point-buy characters alongside your current system? I suppose 1's would work out to be 8-9, 2's as 10-11 (base average), etc.

I sometimes gen up random D&D characters when I'm bored and have way too much time on my hands, and it'd be great to have a home for those orphaned characters. =)

Xenoqueen · Post by **Xenoqueen** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:34 pm

Gads I cannot WAIT to see this roll. 83 My DnD brainchildren are raring to go.

On that note, can I cast another vote like Keilin for point-buying? That's what I'm familiar with, and while I can certainly and willingly adapt to the simpler system you're proposing, well... just set me beside Keilin as Twit #2. X3

::excited nonetheless, no matter what!::

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:34 pm

Thanks for the opinions guys!

First up:

Just as a side observance, I definitely appreciate the practicality in using the Storyteller ranking system instead of rolling, and I've always liked the simplicity and cleanness, but mixing the two systems is a little... jarring to me.

I understand your feelings on this, but I think the thing to really keep in mind is that after the fact there is NO game at all. No dice-rolling, no number crunching, and the dragons and characters you have will not be playing in an adventure run by me (as much fun as that would be!). The numbers all in all are actually useless with no real purpose other then an added way to create a character past name/age/height/etc.

I only added the number list as an easy way for people that have never touched D&D to glance at it and understand how a "2" compares to a "5". We have to realize that some people here may never have glanced at any D&D or hell, table top book!

BUT, since two of you have approached it I can see what I can do about editing the system. I don't want to have two number systems up, that is too confusing. So I would rather toss out one and keep the other - and if people prefer the traditional actual game method, we can go that route.

The biggest problem here is that I have no clue on how to make that system work and be simple. I am very clueless on 4.0's character creation and I haven't actually played D&D in over 8 years now - so even 3.0-5 is kinda lost on me. I always just rolled the dice, placed in stats! I really want to avoid dice-rolling, so that point-buy chart you posted is perfect. But, I feel we will still need a "explanation" chart for those that have no D&D experience? How do you know the difference between a "10" and a "18" in a game-setting with no actual game, there is no combat for those stats to directly effect.

I'm all ears for this, or even some heavy help if anyone wants to provide it.

There should be a happy medium between the two, such as using the descriptions for the "5 point" system for the full out.

I think the idea of being able to translate D&D chars into these sponsors and vice-versa is a nice one, for those that have existing characters.

Because in the end, I still need to figure out how the character stats effect dragon choices - I haven't gotten that one groked out yet.

Yay for brainstorming! Again I very much appreciate this type of talking-it-out work, I would rather build up a system people enjoy and can use then force you guys into something weird. The sad part is...I can't release the first dragons until this is all set up!

(And all this talk almost makes me wish I could make your dragons fight and roll dice, but that's too ambitious for me atm. Shard does so much with her Whiteweyr already!).