I've been having a lot of trouble thinking of poses and variations of poses, much less finding references. So.. I've been entertaining the idea of making a pose-idea-and-reference-database type thing. Anyone else like that idea?
and, now for the reason I posted in this threat-- multi headed dragons. ;-; I can't draw them. I don't know why. The way the necks fit on the body just.. isn't working~! -stabstabstab- are there any tutorials out there for that?
[and, kind of cheating, can anyone suggest reference creatures for Pernese/Alskyrian land dragons, and maybe even a pose or two? ? I've already got stretching like a kitty but that barely works.]
Almost any posture of a dog, cat, horse or bird will help you. A while back probably in the old forum there was a poll about what flavor of animals we based our dragons on, and it was a pretty good tossup.
For multiple headed dragons, you might want to just do some anatomy research on skeletons and such. They're not easy to make 'right' because of course there are no good multiple headed creatures in the wild, except for some two headed snakes, and they don't really have the kind of neck that you'd be looking for.
XP they might actually be better than nothing, but yeah. X.x bugger. ;-; i'll just keep staring at the art of people who've done it before and done it okay, along with the skeletal stuff.
XP I usually use cat and dog references, with the occasional horse or deer. MAned wolves work really well for long-legged dragons-- i used those for the VC. It's mostly the legs-- i can't find anything with pernese legs. -fusses at pernese dragons-
For poses, I usually start with a flowing line for the spine, add leg and wing-lines and head position, and start fleshing it out from there. Usually from start to finish I modify the original stick-dragon-shape a lot, but it's a good place to start!
I'd suggest being careful about using reference poses unless they're from stock photos or something. Artists can be really touchy about someone using their poses without permission >.> Some go so far as to call it art theft. I think that's kind of dumb, but it does happen a fair bit.
I'd suggest watching animals in real life, personally, or using stock photos.
I usually use do use stock photos and such, though if anyone did come up to me and say i'd stolen their pose, which people have before, I think I'd be forced to give them the finger, becuase.. come on. It's not like, you know, cat's only assume that stretch-pose for them, and to my knowledge you can't copyright a pose and any position the human/feline/canine/equine/avian/etc body can assume is free for anyone to use, so they would be perfectly free to kiss my ass.
That's actually happened to me. ._. luckily, most of the people who decided to get their own noses involved in the scandal decided that this person was an idiot, and poses were one of the few things you actually couldn't steal. It wasn't even the artist who accused me, but one of those little annoying lackeys who just do things like that to become the temporary savior of the artist in question. The pose in question? A character. in a sundress. standing. with their hands behidn their back. IT's not even bloody original.
Incidentally, that's one of the reasons I hate DA and the anthro-anime-[insert-somewhat-popular-art-subtype-here]-community as a whole.
hee, minirant. Sorry, cacopheny, that wasn't directed at you. >.> that's just one of the things that get under my skin.
*huffs!* It's not necessarily about the pose, but the fact that some artists are getting a free ride in tracing somebody else's pose instead of learning how to draw through the study of anatomy and observation, themselves. :| If you just trace other people's poses and make them your own by changing the features, you don't learn as much about how the body works, so there will always be little glitches and parts that look funny in comparison.
Stock photos are okay, yes... but they can only get you so far.
:/ Tracing is different, and tracing isn't stealing someone's pose, it's stealing someone's lines, and that's theft. But looking at a pose and applying it, emulating it? I can't think of a better way to learn.. anything, really. At least, when i look at an image, I invision the way the muscles are under it. and it's good practice, becuase just in your head, you'll never be able to get what way the legs and arms would move. Or at least, i can't, and then i end up with an animal whose leg is bent 40 degrees the wrong way. In addition, LOOKING at poses and applying it to a creature that doesn't look like your base at all, or infact just drawing it is good practice. :/ And, of course, you follow that up with diagrams of musculature and skeletal structure so you know what's happening underneath the skin and fur.
:: holds up hands peaceably :: Tracing is another issue entirely, and is definite theft. And I don't think pose-stealing is theft (I have a whole fat folder on my computer full of possible pose references), but a lot of people do, so I just was warning ya to be careful, is all ^^'
But there are a lot of people out there who freak out if you breathe on their artwork.
Personally, if someone used one of my craptacular drawings as a reference, I'd be flattered.
And hell, if using people's work as reference for what you're drawing is theft, I'd better start paying out millions for copyright infringement right now. XD
But yeah, tracing definitely=badness. I don't even see the point. O.o
"Hey that's pretty good, did you do that?"
"Nah, this chick online did. I just got smacked in the head really hard last year and needed something to do with the crayons I got for Christmas."
S.R. / Coeptus Weir
~*~
Before she turns, rose-thorned tail streaking my hood,
I glimpse from her a thought like jagged glass,
Yet delicate with the texture of sentience:
We remain "turtle-apes", only the shells of our armors grow.
-My Bones Waxed Old by Robert Frazier
-nodnod- i know. X.x I have a folder in my files full ofpictures like that too. If anyone has a problem with it, i'll deal with them individually, but honestly? by the time they're inked and everything, they've mutated from the reference so much they're barely recogniseable.
but if it bothers peopel so much, i won't use references. :/ I'm kind of upset now becuase this kinda made me realise what i'm lacking as an artist. I don't have that innate sense of where things go, and I CAN'T place thigns just by looking at a skeletan and muscle structure. I need a reference to be sure of what goes where. But people are comparing THAT to tracing? Now i'm feeling like my shit isn't valid at all.
Aw, DNS don't feel that way. I love your stuff. *hugs*
And it's not like there's anyone who was always able to do everything cold-turkey without any influence or help from someone else.
S.R. / Coeptus Weir
~*~
Before she turns, rose-thorned tail streaking my hood,
I glimpse from her a thought like jagged glass,
Yet delicate with the texture of sentience:
We remain "turtle-apes", only the shells of our armors grow.
-My Bones Waxed Old by Robert Frazier
>.> ACtually, tio does, but i always thought he was an execption. ._. he's crazy.
and eh, i'm overreacting. It's probably due to all this bloody emotional shit in my family. >.> And i shouldn't overreact, and i truely regret that post up there, but won't delete it becuase that's against my morals and crap. ._. and i know no one said my art is invalid, or even implied it even a little, or actualyl implied anything about my art directly. I'm just being wierd. :/ i think it's cuz this is the first time where I'm *almost* happy with what i'm doing, and apparently that isn't aloud in NS-headland. -stares at self-
Er, no one said you had to stop using references, Ness. I sure haven't. I was just warning you : P Don't use popular people's work for references unless you know what the consequences might be, unless it doesn't look like that pose anymore by the time yer done with it XD
That said. Ness, it takes time to figure out how things go properly. Time and lots and lots of practice. You're being too hard on yourself. Slow down, take a breather, and don't bash on yourself like that : ) Heck, you've improved in your artwork since I've known you, so obviously you're doing something right, eh?
Okay, maybe there are rare exceptions, but very few.
And even if someone says something, who, honestly, gives a fuck?
S.R. / Coeptus Weir
~*~
Before she turns, rose-thorned tail streaking my hood,
I glimpse from her a thought like jagged glass,
Yet delicate with the texture of sentience:
We remain "turtle-apes", only the shells of our armors grow.
-My Bones Waxed Old by Robert Frazier
*coughs* Maybe I'm coming into the discussion late, but I figured I'd make a point.
There's a difference between borrowing a pose and copying a pose.
For example:
I draw a picture with a dragon in a certain pose. It also has its head tilted a certain way, its wings out, maybe it's putting its foot on the ground in a funny way, or its tail has a particular curlycue in it.
It is standing side-on with one back foot off the ground and its forefeet together.
Someone comes along and looks at the way the limbs are arranged and goes "hmm, I could use that later" and saves the picture. They then use the POSE later, looking at the image and thinking about how it works.
They draw a dragon standing side-on with one back foot off the ground and its forefeet together.
BUT. The dragon's head is tilted a different angle, its tail is somewhere else, and its wings are folded along its back. That distinctive way that my drawing is putting a foot on the ground is not present.
This is A-OK in my books.
But if someone comes along and, in the guise of "I just used your POSE!" has all the subleties of my drawing in their drawing -- that is, the tilt of the dragon's head, the curlycue in its tail, etc etc are copied... well, that is NOT OK. You can 'trace' something by just looking at it, if you make no effort to differentiate the little details (and I don't just mean physical traits like spines or tailfloofs). Borrowing the general stick-figure poses CAN be a way to learn (but you need to make it into one by thinking about it), but borrowing a specific pose and all its complexities, and then defending yourself via a smokescreen of "I just borrowed the pose!" is underhanded.
The thing about drawing a good picture is that you need to be thinking about what you're drawing as you're drawing it. Eventually, with any luck, you'll be able to move to creating your own poses most of the time... look forward to that day, and strive for it. :3
Does anybody know where that great tracing/referencing tutorial on DA went? The one that got pulled because DA disagreed with it? Mystic linked to it in the General forum a while back. I know the user reuploaded it, but I don't remember the user's name, otherwise I'd go get it myself.
i was just thinking about that but even that I thought was going too far. I mean the girl was showing two completely different pictures, body position and all, and yet because the hand was in the same position it was considered art theft. I mean come on Mostly I agree with Nessie. I'm not a great artist but I wouldn't be able to draw much beyond scribbles if I didn't have things to reference. Copywriting a pose is as annoying to me as copywriting a name (zomg your characters name is Joe so is mine FREAK OUT) and yet both seem to be used adamantly in the art community. It's part of why I hardly bother with art anymore. Not that the writing community is without drama, but at least I can do /that/ without a reference.
For the record, reference to me = photograph or almost-photographic realism. Drawings are stylized, and thus are not stable references.
Also, I'm REALLY REALLY REALLY not interested in defining what's art theft and what's not. I really don't think someone could look at someone else's drawing and copy it right down to head-tilt and curly-q tail exactly. ._. Or, no, rather-- itwould be hard to do that, becuase it's in the nature of an artist to change things without realizing it, either due to skill or preference. Or at least, that's how it is from me, and again, i tend to work from photographs, because photographs are more detailed and clearer and lifelike, adn i try to imitate life. I also find that it's really hard to do that above kind of tracing with a photograph when you're trying to turn a cat into a dragon.
Can I please request that everything about art theft and what consitutes art theft please be moved to another threat? PLEASE? Because I happen to have a deep personal problem with the art community's obsession with it, and I'd really like to avoid it if possible. Please.
Also, i'm goign to leave it at this- if my using reference photographs makes ANYONE uncomfortable, I will STOP, becuase I do not intend to make anyone uncomfortable with my art, nor do i intent to kick up drama.
Also, for the record, I do not believe you can ever copy a pose. You can TRACE, and that's oen thing, and that's stealing someone's lines, which includes little things like head tilt and curly-q tail, but you cannot steal a pose. And until someone comes up to me with a court order telling me otherwise, this is what I choose to BELIEVE. on a personal level.
I'm sorry for over reacting, btu at this point I feel attacked, which I know i'm not being, but still. I do not TRACE. I look at a pose, and I modify it. I do this largely for limb-placement. Once more, if this makes ANYONE even a LITTLE uncomfortable, I will STOP doing this. \
Now please. I'm begging you, please, take your discussions of art theft = this art theft = not this to another thread. PLEASE.
... nobody said you traced, Ness o.o Nor did anyone say anything you're doing is wrong, or that you had to change what you were doing. Nobody was attacking you-- or attacking anybody-- one bit. Relax, hun XD We're not gonna bite. Honestly.
Yeah, i know. And i said that. X.x I overreact. This is a reaction bourne of being falsely accused of art theft three times [and the accusers said it was false later on; that, or the artist did.] At this point, I'm just DONE with the idea, the concept, and everything that goes along with it.
my fault for ranting in the first place.
but here, last thing i will say AT ALL on the topic art theft on this thread, and probably on this board--
this is as close as i get to pose tracing.
S.R. / Coeptus Weir
~*~
Before she turns, rose-thorned tail streaking my hood,
I glimpse from her a thought like jagged glass,
Yet delicate with the texture of sentience:
We remain "turtle-apes", only the shells of our armors grow.
-My Bones Waxed Old by Robert Frazier
One of my earliest attempts at a hatchling template looked a little like that but not nearly as good I should say I *attempted* to make it look like that. Hee.
The only thing I really struggle with are the wings, most of the time. Right now all my drawing stuff is dry to the bone and I consider myself lucky I was able to get the Falasian adult done.
I try not to 'trace' people's artwork and if it seems like I do I never intend or intended to. The Spell Weavers, for exsample, very much resemble anouther dragon out there (a Selumpto or something like that...Silent Melody?) but I never knew it till it was pointed out.
My Falas Hatchling image resembles a dragon image that was given to me later after I drew them, too. I know the artist who drew that dragon didn't 'trace' my image intentionally - I'm pretty sure she never saw the falas hatchlings to begin with. heh.
I've 'traced' myself, one could say. The Falas hatchling and weyrlings of the old template and the redrawn ones are identical only because I liked the poses and decided to keep them, just alter the style.
Whelen Style (I doub't I got his name right)
Current Style
Arn't they cute! *Segs bites her hand*
anyway, my two marks...er..cents...I've been in Pern too long.
Pah! That's not bad until you're in the car with your family, and you look out the window at a bunch of cows and go "Oh, look at the herdbeasts!" XD
S.R. / Coeptus Weir
~*~
Before she turns, rose-thorned tail streaking my hood,
I glimpse from her a thought like jagged glass,
Yet delicate with the texture of sentience:
We remain "turtle-apes", only the shells of our armors grow.
-My Bones Waxed Old by Robert Frazier
? I've already got stretching like a kitty but that barely works.]
Mostly I agree with Nessie. I'm not a great artist but I wouldn't be able to draw much beyond scribbles if I didn't have things to reference. Copywriting a pose is as annoying to me as copywriting a name (zomg your characters name is Joe so is mine FREAK OUT) and yet both seem to be used adamantly in the art community. It's part of why I hardly bother with art anymore. Not that the writing community is without drama, but at least I can do /that/ without a reference.
I should say I *attempted* to make it look like that. Hee.
