Verbal vs. Vocal Speech

TyGryph · Post by **TyGryph** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:21 pm

Ok, It's been catching on my brain lately, and so I looked it up and now I'm all set to -share- what I found. Aren't I nice?

ver·bal
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of words <verbal instructions> b : of, relating to, or involving words rather than meaning or substance <a consistency that is merely verbal and scholastic -- B. N. Cardozo> c : consisting of or using words only and not involving action <a verbal protest>
2 : of, relating to, or formed from a verb <a verbal adjective>
3 : spoken rather than written <a verbal contract>
4 : VERBATIM, WORD-FOR-WORD <a verbal translation>
5 : of or relating to facility in the use and comprehension of words <verbal aptitude>
- ver·bal·ly
/-b&-lE/ adverb

vo·cal
Function: adjective
1 a : uttered by the voice : ORAL b : produced in the larynx : uttered with voice
2 : relating to, composed or arranged for, or sung by the human voice <vocal music>
3 : VOCALIC
4 a : having or exercising the power of producing voice, speech, or sound b : EXPRESSIVE c : full of voices : RESOUNDING d : given to expressing oneself freely or insistently : OUTSPOKEN e : expressed in words
5 : of, relating to, or resembling the voice <vocal impairment>
- vo·cal·i·ty
/vO-'ka-l&-tE/ noun
- vo·cal·ly
/'vO-k&-lE/ adverb

Mirriam-Webster Dictionary Online

So if Verbal is words and Vocal is voice...

Then a dragon who speaks out loud has vocal speech.

A dragon or any other creature who uses words to communicate has verbal speech -- but it doesn't necessarily mean that they speak aloud. So telepathic communications are still verbal.

Both of which exclude the dragons recently arrived from the BWR giveaway who are "empathy only"...

Discuss. Argue. Chew thoughtfully. Let me know what you think.

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:46 pm

*smack*

((apologizes lol))

I think the problem with using real life textbook definitions of such things leaves out the fact that we don't necessarily have an "empathic speech" category in reality. In context with the dragons, it's assumed that they have *telepathic* speech which consists of at minimum emotions and images, and at best a sentient-level of *verbal* speech patterns.

It is an important distinction to say 'emotion only' or 'visuals only' when the dragon (or person) in question *does not have* what we'd typically state as 'verbal speech' or speech through spoken words. It's *never* been assumed, I don't think, that dragons 'speak through written word', so we've somewhat seemed to replace written with emoted/psionic speech.

Least, that's how I see it.

Rachael · Post by **Rachael** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:50 pm

"2 : of, relating to, or formed from a verb "

Technically, if one communicates through empathy, which is a form of emotional communication, you could say they are speaking through a special kind of verbality which, while not vocal, if felt within the mind and translated by the mind to be comprehensible, it still is verbal, since feeling an emotion, being given an emotion/feeling is what would be happening...

I suck at explaning things. XD

Astra · Post by **Astra** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:51 pm

I think you make a good point ... I was just the other day figuring out how Cyrnan's communicate, since they have telepathic speech but there is an in-story rather complicated draconic language which they would not have needed to develop if they could just think to each other. Therefore I figured that they are able to communicate to each other by thought, but they must communicate these thoughts in real words, otherwise they'll all be jumpled. So in other words, if a dragon thinks to you in Spanish, then Spanish words will pop into your head; there's no auto-translate feature

So I guess, Cyrnan dragons use verbal and telepathic speech

TyGryph · Post by **TyGryph** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:58 pm

ooh we have all sorts of philosophic energies today!

I think some of the dragons would write if they could get their paws/claws/talons/etc around a pen/pencil/brush/etc.... but generally I think they're just too large to do that task effectively. Some of the smaller ones could and probably do. It would be useful in, say, painting advertising or painting over unwanted graffiti, if a dragon could control a paintbrush. (On the other talon, dragons might have an interesting notion of what constitutes graffiti, and a draconic tagger might be a huge problem.)

Xenoqueen · Post by **Xenoqueen** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:08 pm

Heh, I did that research between Verbal/Vocal myself a while back, too.

I settled with Verbal because it discusses words, whereas Vocal could be indistinguishable grunts and growls as well as words. Yes, because Verbal is words it could also speak of Telepathy that uses words, but I've always connected the word Vocal with sound that doesn't have to be in words at all (vocally screeching birds, for example), which is why I choose to go with Verbal rather than Vocal.

Cacopheny · Post by **Cacopheny** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:16 pm

Avengaean dragons write.

/two cents
:: runs away XD ::

TyGryph · Post by **TyGryph** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:22 pm

Starting to sound like we need a checklist...

Communication:

[ ] Vocal - species specific "noises" (understandable only by same species)
[ ] Vocal+Verbal - single spoken language (can be learned by others)
[ ] Vocal+Verbal - multiple spoken languages

[ ] Empathic - emotions
[ ] Empathic - images

[ ] Telepathic+Verbal - single language (sent in Spanish, received in Spanish.)
[ ] Telepathic+Verbal - auto-translate (universal telepathic language?)

[ ] Other? More?

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:54 pm

Cacopheny wrote:Avengaean dragons write.

/two cents
:: runs away XD ::

Yes, and so does one of my other dragons - but they're shapeshifters too.

And I love the 'draconic tagger' grafitti problem. Yes. In fact, I ought to swipe that idea and use it in Talon because that poor city is never going to be the same what with that Nexus opened up at the top of Alabaster Tower. ... heh. But there are dragon riding cops so dragons tagging will have to deal with the law one way or another!

*** On topic ***
I think we're also missing that dragons may use scent as well as sight and vocalizations for physical speech. Can you imagine a dragon scent marking something...? x.@

Astra · Post by **Astra** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:58 pm

I always figured Cyrnan dragons, anyway, used telekenesis to hold up the pen and make it write

There are ancient draconic records, anyway, so they had to have recorded things somehow.

TyGryph · Post by **TyGryph** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:15 pm

They could... we generally don't write much about how our dragons smell...

Body language is very important too (in the physical/non-verbal communications set). Imagine how different it would be in a society of anthro felines/canines. Tail position/movement, and ear positions... I'd hate to have to learn it; and they'd probably be frustrated by humans' lack of that sort of body language.

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:19 pm

My cat-race the Zhmrrel are like that. Their military ranks often crop their ears and tails to be 'unemotional' to one another or the enemy.

Dragon body language would be... rather destructive I think. Lashing tail, sudden flaring of the wings, arching neck- of course those are things that I would think are more prevalent on *unridden / nonbonding* dragons more than those who take human or semi-human bonds.

Mystic Dragon · Post by **Mystic Dragon** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:36 pm

My Ancients (the dragons /before/ Hathians arrived) used a bunch of different stuff to communicate. In some of my stories you might see me referencing draconic writing. It's a rune based system, much like Chinese, where characters can be drawn with different combinations of claw markings. As for the verbal/vocal debate, they had no telepathy. Their language was spoken with a heavy accent on hisses and growls, like the grunts Phe referenced earlier. Unless you knew exactly what you were listening for, it was difficult to understand them.

As for when I do need to use telepathy or vocal descriptions in my stories, I define anything happening non-vocally as being mental speech. Mystic and other Tris'Hathian telepaths use 'mental threads' to speak to each other. The words are merely impressions of the idea the mind is trying to get across. Nothing is really heard, but rather sensed. Like when you can see a picture in your mind and focus in on one particular detail. You don't necessarily tend to take the time to sound out each descriptive word in your mind, but rather have an impression of them.

So when I write out mental speech in my stories, the words on the page are merely for the reader's benefit. Anything the characters 'hear' is just an impression of the idea to be conveyed.

o.O Did I confuse anyone else with that?

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:13 pm

Not me, not at all. I make the assumption as well that whatever we're reading in English may very well just be an equitable translation of whatever language - be it mental or vocal. Heck, I had to disclaim in my World of Zekira books that *none* of it's in English, it's just the equivalent...

I imagine that dragons using writing can get a bit unweildy unless they're somewhat small. You'd run out of big flat boulders eventually, right?

Or... they could have something like the ancient humans used, flint chipping for their weapons and tanning tools.... only on a big scale...

"What are you doing today?" "Oh, I'm going up to Rothbart the Chipper to get some stationary..."

Samber · Post by **Samber** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:29 pm

Or they could have sand tables, or use dyes to make pawmarks on walls...

Mystic Dragon · Post by **Mystic Dragon** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:43 pm

Well the Ancients didn't use writing too much. If they really needed right there and then, they'd clear away a spot on the ground and write in the dirt. That way they're not confined to borders.

Inside their lairs, they would use paint to write on the walls. :3 Gives new meaning to finger painting.