Equal Rights

[Shiolar]

Now, I'm all for equal rights, in principle. Everybody should have the same opportunities regardless of their gender, skin colour, religion, sexual preference, maritial status, parental status and physical and mental status. That's only fair.

So why is it that, at the airport today, all the disabled people insist on getting off the plane first, holding up the 100 other people trying to get home? They get to the door, and stand there because the plane is wobbling a bit because of the gale blowing outside, and somehow, maybe, they might fall down the ONE INCH gap between the plane and the steps. Sorry, but given how fat they all were, I really don't see that as a possibility.

But no, the rest of us had to stand there for fifteen minutes until they got out of the plane and into their wheelchairs. Whatever happened to the common decency of just letting everyone else get off first so they aren't holding everyone else up? Equal rights means they aren't prevented from getting on a plane and flying to a foreign country. It DOESN'T mean they have the right to stop 100 other people from going home.

But eventually we get out of the plane and into the baggage collection area. It's a small airport, and there's not really much room for all of us, so I back off into a corner while my friend picks up the bags, because he doesn't mind crowds like I do. Airport security ask me what I'm doing, and suggest that I should get out and go away, even after I said I was waiting for my friend to return with our bags.

Funny enough, they don't tell the disabled people to get out and go away, even though they're hanging around blocking the exit while their carers get their bags. They're in the way, preventing others from getting out, and I'm back in a little corner, and I'm the one who's told to leave. Course, then the people in the wheelchairs decide they don't like it where they're sitting in the middle of the exit, so they come over to my corner and shove me out of the way.

And the security gives me the "well you didn't have any right to be standing there anyway" look. Meanwhile, the man with the pushchair and screaming child is now blocking the exit, and he's not told to go away either. Somehow, because I'm not in a wheelchair or have a brat or two, my basic human rights have evaporated. I'm sure if I was black or Asian (or indeed anything other than the standard white skin, brown hair, blue eyes combination) I wouldn't have been told to leave either.

Equal rights, my ass.

Unfortunately, it's just an example of the overall theme of the world right now. I could write it off as an isolated incident, but I know that it's not. All my life, I've been pushed around by members of minority groups who feel they have more rights than me, and no one ever does anything about it because they're part of a minority and thus immune to the consequences of their actions.

It's not equality for all. It's preferential treatment for those who're "different". Like anyone has the right to say that I, or anyone else like me, doesn't deserve to be treated like a human being just because I'm not black or disabled or old or a religious fanatic or overtly homosexual or bringing along a handful of screaming brats.

I know that equal rights is supposed to breed tolerance and acceptance of those who're different to us. But when those who're different are treated BETTER than everyone else, it certainly doesn't bring any tolerance, acceptance or any other positive emotion. All it breeds is bitterness, resentment and hatred. When I'm treated badly for the sake of making a handful of people in wheelchairs happy, I certainly don't feel inclined to view disabled people with tolerance. I end up seeing them as people who're quite happy to hurt other people because they think they're more entitled to being treated as a human being than the rest of us.

I'm a fairly tolerant guy, to an extent. Everybody gets a chance, without prejudice. I don't care who they are, as long as they treat their fellow human beings with a bit of common decency and respect. If they don't, then I don't tolerate them, or view them as anything other than a selfish bully. And this is regardless of the colour of their skin, their gender, their religious beliefs, sexuality, physical state, etc. Just because someone is different to the majority does NOT give them the inherent right to treat others badly.

But apparently those who make and enforce the laws of this country don't agree.

[Shard]

I agree a lot. It's one thing to profess equality, and another to actually enforce it.

We had a case here in San Diego where this one woman was suing the city to get some extra priveleges for herself as a 'disabled' person, in the big sports stadium we have. I believe that the case was eventually tossed because they found evidence that basically she was reselling her tickets in those priveleged spots. There was already adequate wheelchair ramping and parking, spots for disabled people to sit without obstruction, etc. But she was just being a scammer.

What I think we really need is a total wipe of the expectations we have, and *actually* start treating people equally. This is hugely problematic of course, because you'd have to get people the same money and the same health care, education, etc etc. to be on the same page when the time comes for job evals, etc.

I personally don't *want* someone who can't type quickly or move adequatly well to be doing a job which requires a high level of physical performance. If the job can be done *well* by someone with a disadvantage, then great, that's fine, but not at the expense of someone who is *better at it* than they are, but is 'not' disabled/different/etc. But again, it's hard to balance out because the differences in education and health are so radically different for poor/black/ethnic/regional etc people than they are for typically white-male-middle class folks.

I don't feel particularly bad about the white-male-middle class, because *in general* what we as a country seem to expect out of the 'equality' function is "what they already have been prepared for" by their economic status. That may or may not be anywhere near true of course! But the perception is that that 'rank' is the "equality" goal to be achieved, therefore they (whoever may *look* like they fill that role) may safely be ignored. It's stupid, but hey, that's how it seems to be.

In my fictional city of Dawnlight (where Shard and the Blackstone people come from) I've made a concerted effort to balance things in terms of who you'll see doing any given job. Black, brown, white, I don't care - I've somehow managed to rescue myself from a life of racist assholery though my whole family was like that. But it's an effort that most folks don't bother with... I don't quite get why. It's one of those mysteries to me. I grew up in a neighborhood where my best friends were Philipino and Japanese, Hispanic and oh yeah one or two other white kids maybe. Though I have to admit - the very first "black kid" in my school was after I left 6th grade, and when I went to jr high, I think there was a little culture shock from my elementary school mates - because there was active bussing going on (for the first time, this was 1978). Then, some of my best jr high buddies were black, hispanic, asian, I didn't care - we had fun or we didn't have fun. So it's always been a little weird to me why someone would presume inequality because of skin color.

That's what I'd change in this world, anyway... But I'm definitely all for 'achievement based progression' in terms of hiring and promotions. It's not fair to promote someone *just* because they meet a quota.

[LakotaWolf]

I just want to say that... my father is in a wheelchair, has been for the last five years, and requires complete assistance to get anywhere, and I have ALWAYS been grateful for the common courtesy of people who will stand up/move out of the way/wait a bit for us to get by with my dad. I have never heard anyone mutter anything rude about him or refuse to help or move, so I'm going to go on a limb here and assume that most people don't mind the small inconvenience.

I think people don't understand ANYTHING about handicapped people until you have one as a family member or close friend.

I also think it's really insulting to refer to "all" the disabled people on your plane trip today as "fat". Maybe they all were overweight, but I still think it's quite unfortunate that you have that instinct to refer to them all as "fat". And so they hesitate at the exits of planes, because they might fall? That is a very real possibility. I have obese family members, and when they fall, it is very scary and difficult to get them back up again. They sometimes get injured. They might have been embarassed by the fact that they require special treatment, and feel badly for holding everyone else up. I have to say I highly doubt that any of the "fat" disabled people were maliciously holding everyone up.

"Course, then the people in the wheelchairs decide they don't like it where they're sitting in the middle of the exit, so they come over to my corner and shove me out of the way." - I also really doubt they singled you out specifically and came over to crowd you. Maybe they did finally realize they were blocking the exit and moved. No maliciousness in it.

Honestly? To me you sound racist: "If I were black or Asian, I wouldn't have been asked to leave." All you're doing is reinforcing stereotypes that minorities get "better" opportunities than white people. You're propagating the same attitude that makes people treat you differently than they're treated. Mexicans breed like rabbits and are lazy. Blacks are all in gangs. Asians are all studious, serious, boring, and all become doctors (funny, my boyfriend's Chinese and he's in law school, has long hair, and plays games...) And I must be stupid because I'm blonde and female.

"Funny enough, they don't tell the disabled people to get out and go away" - Maybe if you were paralyzed, or morbidly obese, you'd feel pretty damn bad if someone told you to hurry it up, hobble or wheel a little faster, the normal people want to get by. Maybe they figure that, since you are a healthy young male, you could stand to wait an extra 15-30 minutes for those less fortunate. It's entirely possible that some of them might have had to go to the bathroom, and most of them probably could not use the plane's bathroom during the flight like you could.

I'm sorry you feel that you have been so mistreated by "minority groups". But you can't just assume that the entire world is a conspiracy against Big Whitey. White people do their own oppression of minorities still, plus white people still beat homosexuals to death in this civilized age. So I always say look to thyself before you fling the blame of mistreatment onto another race, religion, etc.

"Equal rights, my ass." - I hope you never break an ankle or your neck or get a traumatic brain injury.

[Dray]

You're kidding me. You're upset because you had to wait an extra fifteen minutes, and then were asked/told to move out of the way?

Slow down, boy, take a breath and relax. Like Lakota said, they were very likely not blocking your progress with malicious intent, and she gave a few good reasons for that.

And honestly? Maybe they came over to your corner /because/ it was a corner and they were trying to get out of the way, themselves! It just so happened that you were there, as well. They probably didn't even notice you, let alone take it to heart to come over to you just to piss you off, so I don't see the point of getting all in a huff and throwing a small temper tantrum about it.

T_T" Life happens. If you're held up and people are being prissy with you, you don't have to go and get mangry about it. There's no need to propagate that negativity, especially towards people who're likely in a lot of pain and discomfort (or embarrassment, or shame, or whatever) already.

Just relax and go on to the better parts of your day, let go of the petty inconveniences.

Sheebus, you've even go /my/ proverbial hackles raised and it's not like it's a big problem, anyhow. 9________9'''

[Shiolar]

I wouldn't have minded if they'd actually said "would you mind moving out of the way?" or something like that. It was the whole attitude of the security teams that I had NO right to be waiting for my friend and my baggage, but minority groups do. It was the fact that the people in the wheelchairs literally PUSHED me. If they'd at least bothered to acknowledge my existance, ask me to find another place to stand, I wouldn't have minded. It was the attitude that they had more right to be there than me, that it was perfectly acceptable for them to just shove me out of the way.

Lakota, your father is in a wheelchair, I know. So, would he just shove someone out of the way if they were standing where he wanted to park his wheelchair? Or would he say "could you move a few feet that way, please?" Would he ASK someone to help him, or would he DEMAND it?

THAT is my problem. The fact that over here, at least, most minorities have it in their heads that they have the right to push other people around. And like I said, yesterday's incident wouldn't have bothered me so much if it wasn't so indicative of the prevailing attitude in this country. If it wasn't so common these days, such that it happens pretty much every day in some way or another.

So sure, call me racist or whatever you want, Lakota. To be honest, if feeling that EVERYONE should have absolutely perfect EQUAL rights makes me racist, then call me that. I wasn't being racist, however, when I said that if I'd been black or Asian I wouldn't have been told to move. It is a FACT over here. No one will EVER say anything a black or Asian man doesn't want to hear, because you know what happens if they do? Black or Asian man says "You're discriminating against me because I'm black/Asian/whatever! Sue your ass!" Suing people being a rather nasty thing recently imported from America, as it happens. I'm not even going to begin discussing my objections to suing.

*shrugs* I live in an area of the country that's always been known as a tolerant place. Largely, everybody knows everybody, to the extent that it's impossible to go anywhere within two hundred miles of the area and not meet someone you know. We've always been tolerant of people who're different, because ultimately it's who the person is that makes the difference. Around here, we don't care what someone looks like as long as they treat others with the same respect and common courtesy that others treat them. And that doesn't work so well when people move here from the cities with the attitude that they have to be aggressive and vicious in order to get anything done.

I should also point out that due to the tolerant attitude of this part of England, it isn't the case that whites push anyone around. We have an extremely relaxed attitude towards homosexuality, towards religion, towards race, towards disabilities. Nobody gets beaten up or killed for being a minority around here. People get beaten up or killed for being assholes, if you'll pardon the language. Although typically, because of the aforementioned fear of being sued, no one really does anything about assholes who're part of a minority group.

People telling me to treat minorities differently because they're a minority really rubs me the wrong way. I treat people as they deserve to be treated. If a man in a wheelchair asks me to help him, or to move out of the way, or whatever, I do it. If he just rams into me with his wheelchair, or DEMANDS that I help him, I don't. Anymore than I'd help anyone else if they demanded it. The word 'please' goes a long way. That's the attitude where I live; common decency, because the person you're dealing with is almost certainly a friend of a friend.

And that is my point, here. In this country, the minorities have been told by the government that they deserve equal treatment, and that has developed into the attitude that they deserve better. And in the process, they've forgotten common courtesy.

And the thing you seem to have missed here is that I don't automatically hate anyone who's different from me. I was brought up to be tolerant of others, and not through the standard government method of "This person is black, you must treat him well. This person is homosexual, you must treat him well. This person his disabled, you must treat him well. This person has a different religion to you, you must treat him well."

The way I was brought up was with the basic idea that all people are equal, and all deserve the same respect. Anybody read "Animal Farm"? The original premise was "All animals are equal", which is the idea of equal rights. But these days, equal rights is more "But some are more equal than others." I was also brought up to speak my mind, no matter how 'politically incorrect' it is. It's 'politically incorrect' to accuse people in wheelchairs of being rude, but if they're rude, I'm going to say so, just the same as if an average white middle class man did the same thing.

I'd also point out that my grandparents care for a woman with severe mental and physical disabilities, so I know well the difficulties such a person faces. And because of that experience, I don't condone the idea that they have the right to push others around. The woman, despite her disabilities, understands how to say 'please' and 'thank you', and my grandparents know that in a tight space, asking someone to move out of the way rather than just shoving straight through is the decent thing to do.

My final point, to illustrate my entire argument, as well as supporting Shard's point of view, is the story of those who want to join the fire brigade. You know, the people who come when your house is on fire. A man who'd worked in the fire brigade for thirty years told me this story.

There's basically two training courses you can get put on, depending on who you are. Women get the one with the lower physical expectations, because women have less upper body strength than men. Disabled people, non-white people and homosexuals also get the one with lower physical expectations. The average white male gets the one with higher physical expectations. An average white male writes to complain about this, because he's being given a tougher training course than the other recruits because he's an average white male, and he's told to shut up.

Should it not be the case that, seeing as the fire brigade is about saving people's lives, shouldn't all recruits have the same physical expectations? If you're not physically capable of going into a burning house, lifting things that have collapsed on top of someone and then rescuing said person, then you really shouldn't be in the fire brigade. They shouldn't just lower the physical expectations to allow minorities to join. If they don't have the required strength, they shouldn't be there, because people's lives are at risk. If they do have the required strength, then who cares if they're male, female, black, white, Christian, Jew, Islamic, straight, gay, disabled, whatever?

As Shard said, it's about hiring the best people for the job, not making it easy for minorities to get the job when they're genuinely less qualified. If my house is on fire and I'm trapped beneath a collapsed wall, I'd rather be rescued by a team of average white men who have the pure muscle to help me, not by a team of people who only got into the fire brigade to fill quotas of minorities and don't actually have the strength to do it. Stuff political correctness, I'd rather not burn to death, thank you very much.

I'm an average white middle class male, and I refuse to treat people differently depending on their gender, race, religion, sexuality or physical status. And this goes both ways. They don't get treated as if they're inferior to me, but they don't get given any special treatment either. As far as I'm concerned, they all get treated as human beings. Nothing more, nothing less.

[LakotaWolf]

You know what's funny? I was sitting here reading your little novella of a reply, preparing my own return statements, and then I just started laughing.

This argument will go on forever. You will keep coming up with things to justify your original statements and beliefs, and if I'm foolish and if I let you bother me, I'll keep getting pissed off and keep on replying.

You're not worth it. This issue you have with the crippled, disabled, or otherwise "different" isn't worth it.

You go right on being Big White Male. More power to you. You aren't going to change what I think, and I'm not even going to bother trying to change what you think.

"Adios, enemigos!" - Space Hunter Drake Redcrest

[Shiolar]

*shrugs* You missed my point entirely, so why bother to try and make you understand? It's hardly my problem if you can't understand that all groups deserve equal treatment, and that minorities shouldn't get special treatment any more than the majority.

I live a completely different lifestyle to you, and most of the other people on this site for that matter. Which is probably why I get so many people yelling at me for various things. Because my life is different enough from yours that none of you understand my viewpoints. Any more than I understand yours. You snipe at me whenever possible, it seems, simply because I see the world in a different way than you do and because my experiences with life differ from yours.

What's really funny is that because of being English and male rather than American and female, I'm actually the minority group here. By your own beliefs, Lakota, that means I deserve to be treated better than the rest of you, doesn't it? Because I'm different from the rest of you. Equal rights means that minority groups get special treatment.

And because you've taken every opportunity to snipe at me just for being different, I would, on the majority of sites on the internet, be fully justified in making a complaint to the Admin and having you banned. On the vast majority of websites, being prejudiced towards and discriminating against a minority group is a bannable offence.

Whereas if you hold to the belief, as I do, that equal rights means all people should be treated equally, then we're just two people having a disagreement. The fact that my gender and nationality differs from just about everyone else here is inconsequential, if we're all truly equal.

[JKatkina]

I've been watching this whole thing, and I will say, Shiolar, you have given as many snipes as she has.

I'm also not entering the 'real' debate here, because the way these posts have been phrased, all they're doing is getting hackles up, even in the 'debates' forum. I'd suggest at least trying to be a little more... mmm... considered? That's not the right word, but I'll go with it. Be careful with your words; careless ones may be taken as more 'sniping', and probably won't win anyone many friends.

[Graeth]

I'd suggest at least trying to be a little more... mmm... considered? That's not the right word, but I'll go with it. Be careful with your words; careless ones may be taken as more 'sniping', and probably won't win anyone many friends.

you want 'considerate'

[JKatkina]

Aww, almost, again. X3 I thought of 'considerate' but that brings to mind touchy-feely nice-to-everyone, which isn't exactly what I meant. I guess by 'considered', I just want people to think about their posts a bit more before they post them. :3

[Shard]

Lakota: remember this is a forum where feelings may be bruised easily. Shiolar isn't meaning to try and insulting you personally, and IS entitled to his opinion and experiences on any matter. So please, stop taking it into the personal area.

I may lock this thread, please keep the tempers in check. Thanks.

[Shiolar]

Yes, I'll admit I've given snipes here. But, I'm the minority group, which means that, according to Lakota's viewpoint, it's okay for me to snipe. *shrugs* Lakota tends to snipe at me, however, when I've done nothing wrong, other than not be the kind of person that she likes; this isn't the first time she's sniped at me. But that's not a discussion that really needs to take place here.

I suppose, really, I'm frustrated because I'm trying to describe what I mean, but so far Shard is the only one that actually understands. I've never been against people having rights. Everybody deserves to be able to go where they want, do what they want, get any job they want, and so on. The thing I'm trying to say is that it's becoming increasingly common that minorities are favoured because they're minorities.

It's okay for disabled people to just ram someone with their wheelchair, because they're disabled. If anyone else did such a thing, it would be considered criminal assault. I've been sexually harassed by a man with mental disabilities, and nothing was done because you can't bring criminal charges against someone like that, nor against those who're responsible for them.

I've been told by a black woman that I owe her money because my ancestors enslaved her ancestors, and she refused to accept the fact that my family have only been middle-class for the last twenty years. She refused to believe me when I told her that up until my parents, my ancestors were working class, and most of them farm labourers. They never had slaves, but apparently I owe black people money because of something that someone else's ancestors did to them.

Job quotas mean that more often than not, a member of a minority group will be given a job in preference over someone who is more qualified. Now, fair enough, if the non-white is more qualified, he should get the job. If they're equally qualified, then it should come down to personality, and which one would fit in better in that given working environment. But, if the white guy is better qualified and more suited to the job, then he should be the one employed. Job quotas stop that from happening.

If the airport security don't want people hanging around in the baggage collection area, waiting for their friends or family to get the bags off the conveyor belt, then orders to get out of the way should apply to everyone, regardless of their race or physical state. But as it is, I'm the only one told to leave, because I'm a white middle class male. They refused to consider the fact that just because I look like any other guy that I'm exactly like any other guy.

The reason I'm in the corner in the first place is because I'm nervous of crowds, and I've had enough people attack me that I am genuinely afraid of going outside on my own anymore. I couldn't leave the baggage area because I was afraid, but the security team see only as far as my white skin. And then the people in wheelchairs only see as far as the fact that there's something standing where they want to be.

Because of equal rights, and the emphasis on giving minorities special care, it reduces the value of the majority to a faceless crowd. I don't look different from anyone else, so it's automatically assumed that I AM no different from anyone else. In the eyes of the law and the government, I'm not an individual anymore, because I'm not female, non-white, disabled, non-Christian, or anything else that makes me 'unique'.

And somehow, because I object to not being considered a unique human being in my own right, I'm written off as racist, intolerant, or anything else you want to call me.

And sorry for the extra novella.

[Xenoqueen]

I think you raise some interesting points, Shiolar. I wouldn't jump in and go "yes! agreement!", nor would I for Lakota's standpoint, but it's definitely food for thought on both accounts.

[Shiolar]

Thank you, Phe. *bows* I'm just grateful that you're willing to hear me out on the matter. It's the kind of thing that a lot of people won't even think about. But if nobody ever thinks about it, how are things going to change? If nobody thought about rights for women or non-whites, things would never have changed. And if nobody considers the possibility that things have swung too far in the opposite direction, then how will true equality ever be achieved?

It's what I'd like to see, really. A situation where it genuinely doesn't matter what you look like. Not just in the name of the law, but how people actually think. And you'll never get that if you make all the minorities so 'equal' that they get better treatment than the majority. Because all you've done then is turn the white middle class male into a new minority.

[Dray]

Firstly, bringing up the "banned!" veiled threat was in bad taste, Shiolar. :\ So you and Lakota are of opposing view-points on this matter... that makes it all the more important to listen to each other and to actually try to see things from each others' view-points before writing up giant "No, /this/ is the way that things should work!" posts, or snarks, or whatever.

T_O That said, apologies for last night's "omgwtf?" post. Your first post was inflammatory enough that it had me wanting to smack you down, though after reading everything, I think I understand what you're trying to say.

Then again, it seems like you're trying to say a couple of different things in one big post.

1) White (straight, christian, whatever-majority-of-chioce-you-want here) men should have an equal chance to succeed in their careers as visible and invisible minorities do.

2) You want people of any minority to treat you exactly how you would treat them. (Golden rule? XD)

For jobs, I've seen similar instances where a man was having a hard time getting into a job that he was qualified for, simply because they needed more variation in who they were hiring. My neighbor was having a very difficult time joining the police, even though he'd had several years experience with the military and was perfectly fit--mentally and physically, but he couldn't get on because they were only looking for women and native americans at the time.

Similarly, a lot of students who would /dearly/ love to go to school just /can't/ because they can't afford it, and can't get the money they need from other sources then paying jobs (loans, etc.), while the government is handing out scholarships like crazy to native american folks--a few who I have seen use them, come to school, and then waste their time while they're there.

On the other hand, over here at least, women were /only/ allowed to join the Fire brigade AFTER about 1994. Because they were women. EVEN if they were physically fit women. Other minorities were only allowed at around the same time. :\ Violence and harassment against homosexuals was only banned in... what, 1996 or 1998 out here. And that doesn't even count against the people who still enforce prejudices, whether with violence or with varying kinds of conscious to sub-conscious oppression.

What seems likely to be happening is that the government (a lot of them, really--Canada's and the UK's and the US's, etc.) may be over-reacting to the fact that inequalities are still a very palpable reality, and thusly are favoring minorities to an extent that can get people's hackles up.

So, yes, I agree with you that people should be treated equally, but that if there are standards that must be met in the work-place, then they should be met, regardless of what kind of person the applicant is. If money is going out to one group who needs it, then steps should be taken so that another group isn't getting cut off.

It probably all gets very complicated and reaches way above our heads, and, as we all know, politicians aren't exactly the most shining examples for human equality. :P Why do they run our nations, again? XD



As for wanting to be treated with respect, with demanding a need to have someone say 'please' and 'thankyou' in return for your respect to them, and with your run-in with the security guards, I suspect that there could be any number of factors going on there that didn't /just/ boil down to you being a white male.

Perhaps the guards were bullies. You mention that you're nervous around crowds and that you don't do too well around them. They could easily have been picking up on that, and then demanding you move because they are, subconsciously or not, just jerks. It could very well have been your demeanor, or even a small look of 'attitude' that you gave them that might have done you in. I don't know, I wasn't there to see the exchange, so I only have your words to go off of. Perhaps they were jumping to conclusions, perhaps they had been told that that area was meant for handicapped people, and weren't communicating that with you.

Maybe it /was/ an area where people in wheel-chairs were meant (or at least, often did) congregate while waiting. The back corner sounds like an out of the way place, and that's where /I'd/ go if I couldn't get through that rush of people!

I think that you're going to be disappointed in a lot of people if you keep to those expectations, by the way: "If you want me to do anything for you, you're going to have to say 'please', first." A lot of the time, people will remain closed off completely from other people. If you experiment: be polite to others /first/ without waiting for them to engage /you/, you might find that twice as many people are a lot more open in their 'thankyou's and 'please's!

I've been on both sides of the fence when it comes to minority/majority issues. As a lesbian white female living in a primarily white society, I have the... well, 'privilege', of hiding my 'differences' from other people who don't want to acknowledge them. I've noticed that, when I'm holding hands with Kat or whatever, in public, there is a bit of a different attitude, and you can just /tell/ that it's not (for the most part) a conscious thing. People act a little more wary, distant, closed off... in extreme cases I get the "IHATELESBEENS!" from idiots passing by, but that's not really the bad part... it's that vibe you get from people who /pretend/ it's okay, but harbor ill feelings in the back of their minds--whether because that's what kind of learning they got, or from past experiences, or whatever. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to have to deal with that /all the time/, without any chance of reprieve in public.

I can imagine that disabled, 'fat' people are going to become hard-shelled to the world if they get anything like what I have, and I'm assuming that, seeing you as they did, just standing (maybe even in 'their space') probably had them feeling resentment. Hence the sort of demanding attitude?

What I think I'm trying to say, but what I'm probably just boring you to death with, is that you may be displaying that "you're equal to me, but not quite /that/ equal" vibe without even knowing it, and that might be why you're getting bad times. If you're /really/ as gung-ho about treating everyone equally, start with treating them with an open attitude, with respect and a smile and with the appearance, at least, of understanding. :\ Watch yourself, try to get an outside perspective on what you're doing and how you're interacting. You might find something that you hadn't realized you were doing, before.

[Mystic Dragon]

I usually like to stay out of these debates because I have a habit of screwing up what I'm trying to say. IE. people read into my words and interpret them as "OMGUBITCH!"

Anyway, I agree with both arguments. Partially because I have been in Shiolar's situation when skin colour/abilities really shouldn't matter. Such as in University. They opened the flood gates to Japanese exchange students, who were all spewing hundred dollar bills out their asses, and us Canadians were given the bum's rush.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen a 'minority' be so clique-ish as they were. They would band together in big groups, speak only Japanese, quardon off sections of the classroom for Japanese only, and take up the computer rooms. When one of their group was done with a computer, another would get on. They wouldn't even give 'poor whitey' a chance.

Then there was the roads... It's like driving rules didn't apply to them. And I weep for any car dealer who had to put up with them. They'd run their cars into the ground after a month then tell mommy or daddy to lease them a new one.

I'm not saying this is ALL exchange students, least of all Japanese exchange students. However, after living with one of those priviledged, stuck up little brats for a while, I have become a little biased. Yes, she came over from a country with little money, but that does NOT give her the right to invade my privacy, steal my stuff, and demand I help her with her own homework every five ***ing minutes!

And she wasn't Japanese either. She simply felt intitled. -.- She even got pissed off when she didn't get a manager job when she had absolutely no experience in the field.

On the other hand, I try to go out of my way when I see someone with a crippling injury in public. Whether that's waiting an extra fifteen minutes (we're all getting to where we need to go. No rush) or holding the door open while they go through, I don't care. I've learned to sympathize with the people who help them on a daily basis after doing the same with my grandmother over the past few years. Believe me, I'd take waiting in a cramped airport over changing diapers any day.

I also /enjoy/ working with mentally handicapped individuals. I find them facinating because they /do/ still have their moments of brilliance. Or they're simply a pure example of innocents. Or I'm just amazed at the way they think in general. I've worked with both children without disabilities and children with them, and I prefer the latter. Their patience level is better, their acceptance is better, and it's such a calmer atmosphere. I love to see them smile.

[Shiolar]

Can I just do a disclaimer in advance, that I'm not intending to offend anyone here, in case something I say could be taken that way?

Equality in England goes back more years than in the US, I think; for as long as I can remember, women and minorities were allowed in the fire service and other similar forces. But the fact that minorities have full equality but the government is still favouring them... The UK probably isn't quite at the stage of having full equality, but I think it would get there faster if the government stopped stirring things up and forcing equal rights on us. All the people I know don't care about gender, race, religion, disabilities or anything like that, as long as the person themselves is worth knowing as an individual.

I don't demand a 'please' and a 'thank you', but... I dunno, is it wrong of me to want a bit of common courtesy in place of simply being shoved out of the way? You know, even some eye contact to show they acknowledged my existance? Anything to show that they considered me a living human being rather than just a bit of furniture? I might be giving off bad vibes, maybe, but nothing so severe as considering others to not even be alive.

About the vibes, it's... entirely possible, actually. I know full well just how arrogant I can be, and I'm sure you guys have noticed that? Possibly why I seem to have difficulty getting on with Lakota, if she doesn't like my ego? Anyway, I know I'm arrogant, but I've been working on controlling my body language to avoid showing it so much. The thing is, if I'm giving off "you're equal to me, but not quite /that/ equal" vibes despite my efforts, it's not intentionally at any minority group. If I'm doing it, I'm doing it at the other white males too. Maybe why the security guards had a problem with me too? *shrugs again*

The thing is, despite not being much of a people person, and despite being so incredibly arrogant without even meaning to be, if I need to ask someone to move, I can do so politely. It's something I have to work hard to do, because it's not natural to my personality. But at least I try, which is more than can be said for people who consider it acceptable to just ram their wheelchairs into those who they consider to be in the way. If I can make the effort to be polite, why can't they?

And again, that's another equality thing, isn't it? It's alright for people with disabilities or different coloured skin to have difficulty interacting or showing basic courtesy to others, but it's not alright for an average white male. White males who make the effort but fail are treated badly, but a minority who does the same thing are allowed to do so, because "they're a minority and they can't really be held accountable for their actions."

Finally, because I don't want to keep doing these long posts... the banned thing wasn't made as a threat. I was trying to make an analogy, to show how giving minorities special treatment over the majority is wrong. Lakota called me racist because of my views, and I was trying to illustrate how her views could also be taken as racist. Obviously, my wording left a lot to be desired. As I said, saying things in the right way is something that I struggle with.

The same can be applied to my first post, which is what has caused most of this. I'm sorry if I offended anybody, it wasn't my intent. Between having difficulty expressing exactly what I mean, and the subtle language differences between the UK and US... My original meaning got completely lost, I think. I'm sorry.

[Cacopheny]

First off, I agree with both sides: no matter what their situation, people deserve to be respected. Shiolar was not respected by the airport staff or the group of disabled citizens-- however, he did not respect them and their difficulties, either. Maybe they were just as nervous of the crowd, or maybe they didn't even see him. I don't know, I wasn't there and I'm not them, but I know I'm good at seeing more than one point of view at once. Makes it difficult to be angry at people, no matter what they do, because I often know why and know I'd feel similar in their situation.

I do want to say something about the job qualifications thing. Shiolar and Shard have a point: sometimes people are hired based on quota rather than abilities. However... if you hired just on abilities, for the most part, you would only get white middle and upper class men, because they are the ones who have the money and opportunity to get training and experience with those abilities. Minority groups, often-times, simply do not have the same affluent (or even moderately affluent) background as the majority group, and thus could never be as technically qualified as someone from said majority group.

I'm a white, middle class female, and I get good data entry jobs because I'm an amazingly fast typist. I'm only a good typist because I've had a computer most of my life and wrote stories on it from the time we first got it-- and I only write stories because I've been lucky enough to have a well-educated and literary family who has encouraged things like creativity and independence rather than basic life skills and conformity. I have a college degree, which makes me even better in the job market, but I only have a college degree because my family could afford to help me pay for that degree. So my job opportunities are directly affected by my family and background-- as are everyone's, including minority groups.

Hiring on quotas may not put the best person for the job in the job, but it does give opportunities for minority groups to gain the training and experience to be qualified in the future, as well as gives their children the opportunity to get the same kind of background as the majority group's children, making them more likely to get hired based on ability as well. It's a mechanism for evening the stakes in the future-- it's a step towards a solution, not the solution itself.

I also don't think it's fair to say that a minority got a scholarship and a proportion of those who accepted it are wasting it. White people get scholarships and waste them all the time-- heck, or have their parents pay to send them to college a waste the money-- so it's only logical to assume that a proportion of minority scholarships (who don't really even have the option of having their parents pay) will be wasted, as well.

... that said, I think it's extremely dumb for people to demand monetary compensation for something that happened centuries ago that you, personally, had no part in >.< I've never agreed with that.

[Cacopheny]

Heh, and Shiolar posted while I did XD I concede that I don't know what the minority affluence situation in England is compared to America, but I'm posting from my own sociology and anthropology studies, so I'm not sure how much what we say is applicable to each other. I've never studied England, in particular.

But that was a very graceful post, Shiolar. Thank you ^^ It's easy to get inflamed about such things (though I promise I wasn't; just adding my two cents) and easy to forget that text doesn't convey meaning very well, sometimes-- on both sides.

And oh frick, look at the time >.> :: zooms off, took way too long with her "two cents" XD ::

[JKatkina]

I'm still not getting into the discussion, as I have nothing to say that hasn't already been said better by other people, but what I will say is that this argument seems much less inflammatory than it did, earlier. A little bit of care with posts go a long way.

You people win. :D In too many other places on the internet, this would have exploded into a flame war. You've gone the complete opposite direction.

[Graeth]

Cheers

[Shiolar]

Good points, Caco and Mystic.

I've known mentally handicapped people, but... I've not had too many positive experiences with them. They can be brilliant, and the epitome of innocence, but on the other hand... I've known ones capable of real viciousness, and there's also sexual harassment, as I said earlier... My own bad experiences, of course. But I know, as a fact at least, that there can be those that are truly to rewarding to work with. Just because I've never met them doesn't mean they don't exist...

I agree that a cramped airport beats changing diapers. I'd take the former even given my dislike of crowds. *obsessive-compulsive about being clean* I do try to be helpful to disabled people, given the opportunity... one doesn't need to speak in order to hold a door open and so on, after all. Just don't have too much patience while trying to get off a plane and through an airport; the crowds thing frays my nerves.

On the plus side, we don't have too many problems with exchange students. We get a lot of Chinese ones around here, and I've always gotten on fairly well with them. They pay a lot of money to be in a British college, but it doesn't really get them any privaleges. Everybody else gets to go for free, just because of being a British citizen. Heh, and the Chinese students were actually smarter than me most of the time.

I suppose, too, because education in this country is freely available for anyone as long as they're an actual citizen, hiring quotas make a lot less sense. Everybody gets the same opportunities, as long as they're legally a member of the country (lets not talk about illegal immigrants, since they're another sore point for me). But since everybody gets the same chance to have a college level education, then everybody has the same chance to be the most qualified for a job.

Take my job in accountancy. I came out of college with qualifications that were... shall we just say abysmal and be done with it? But I was still qualified enough to get a junior position in an accountancy firm and take training from there. My qualifications were actually a good cut above the minimum requirements. So there should never be any excuse for hiring quotas in accountancy. As long as they make it through school with grade C or above in maths, they'd be able to get the accountancy training.

I often wonder, though... how long before some government inspector comes to my workplace and reprimands my bosses for not employing any minorities? I wonder if the excuse that no minorities have ever applied for the job will be permitted?

Most of the minorities over here have just as much money as the majority. In the cities, a lot of the minorities have more money than the majority in the same social class, simply because of government benefits and compensation received... My taxes pay for government favouritism like that (yet another sore point).

And wh00t for the self-control on the part of everybody, to avoid the eruption into a flame war!

[Cacopheny]

:: headscratches :: I dunno-- if white men are continually more qualified than minorities, for you to even be having this problem with minorities being hired rather than more qualified white people, doesn't this suggest that something is still unequal in their education? Not just college education-- since this is apparently free in England; good lord, but I want to live there now o.o -- but background and economic status and such. If all things were equal, then there wouldn't be a need for quotas, because minorities would be hired in equal proportions to their residence, because they would be equally qualified. That's what quotas do, after all: they make sure not that equal amounts of minorities and majorities are hired, they make sure that minorities are hired in proportion to their residence amounts. You wouldn't have a quota for 50% African if they only made up 10% of the population, you'd have a quota for 10% in the workplace.

... also, think about this: the free government schools are probably over-crowded and not as good as private schools available to those with the money to attend them. I know that's often the case here, except in some schools with an expressly limited field of education (like a Christian school, or an art school, or whatnot).

I don't have a lot of experience with mentally handicapped people, I admit, so I don't have much to contribute, there. Physically handicapped, I can at least imagine myself in the same situation and thus understand reactions and feelings and the like-- but being mentally handicapped, I just can't imagine, so I have a harder time understanding and thus dealing with.... Thus I tend to err on the side of compassion ^^' If compassion can ever be an error....

I do understand the thing about crowds fraying your nerves, making you more likely to jump to conclusions and leap towards being offended or angry. I dislike crowds greatly, and though I tend to get over perceived slights quickly and thus don't ever tell anyone about them, I've certainly been known to be more jumpy while within a crowded space ^^' ... tis much better when I have headphones with music on, though : O Should try it.

... I cannot get the song "Guilty" by Ben Folds Five out of my head, now, man XD It just seems to fit this whole debate

[Shiolar]

To be honest, given how education is freely available for all, and there's plenty of white people with the same or worse economic status... it shouldn't be possible for a difference to exist in education. Unless it comes down to background or basic personality traits. I don't really like to theorise about either option, seeing as it comes across as racist. It's just that, where education is free, you can never put the lack of it down to economic status.

However... I do know that a lot of public schools have different education qualities depending on the area. In a place where a lot of the people don't have much money, while the school itself still receives the same funding, the students themselves can be... I'm not sure how to say it without likely offending someone. Lets just say that over here, if you want your kid to get a better education, you try to get them into a school located in a better part of the area.

Like, if I had kids, I wouldn't send them to the school in the village where I live because it's largely a low-income area and a good portion of the kids are... rude, violent, unfriendly, disruptive... Instead, I'd send them to one of the schools in town five miles away, because the kids would be from middle class families and just... brought up to be nicer kids?

I know that sounds horribly arrogant, doesn't it? Please don't yell at me.

So... in the cities with very dense populations, I suppose it's entirely possible that a lot of kids from minorities end up in schools with kids like the ones in the village where I live. Resulting in a lower educational standard, which means they're less qualified when they come to get jobs, resulting in hiring quotas. Not through any fault of their own, but simply because in cities it's much harder to find a school that's completely made up of nice kids...

Logically speaking, the solution would be to do something about the educational system? That way, all the kids in the country benefit from a better education, which surely has to be better than using hiring quotas. It means that jobs can be given to those who really are better qualified...

[Cacopheny]

I won't yell at you-- there was nothing to yell at you for, in that, I don't think. But doesn't that just prove my point? There are richer and poorer areas, which automatically means nobody is equal. And I bet a lot of the minorities live in the poorer areas. Just because basic schooling is free doesn't mean good schooling is free; just because schooling is free doesn't mean everyone knows how to work the system to actually attend; just because it's free doesn't mean everyone has the grades to get into it, or the knowledge that it's important, or anything. And just because schooling is free doesn't mean everyone has been brought up in such a way as to do well in it. Yes, working to improve the educational system would help-- but that wouldn't fix the entire problem.

Theorizing about personality traits and background is only racist if you say something like "all blacks are dumb" or "all Asians are smart with math"-- and you think that this is deteremined biologically, because they are black or Asian. Background is a cultural and economic thing, not a biologically determined thing, and there are some personality traits which are preferred in a culture-- not determined by that genetics, but preferred and emphasized in socialization.

That said, even if the most equal of conditions were produced by the government when it comes to education, most of he jobs in a country are geared towards the personality and backgrounds of the majority culture. There are some cultures out there which highly value relaxation and don't focus on promptness-- this does not make the people lazy, but it does make them less "qualified", as it were, for jobs in which the values are those of another culture which does value being on time. Some cultures value understanding more than following the rules, but being understanding while bending the rules can get you into huge trouble when the majority culture is a stickler for the rules.

:: shrugs :: There are so many factors that go into what makes economics, the workplace, government, and culture work, that trying to put down absolutes is utterly impossible ^^' Hence why I try not to, and try not to judge other people without thinking, and try not to fly off the handle at governmental decisions: governments aren't perfect, but they aren't dumb, either. They do research into these things, not just randomly decide "let's do this today". Whether or not this is in the best interest of everyone doesn't really matter-- someone will always be unhappy, no matter what you do. There's no black and white, entirely-wrong or entirely-right: everything is shades of gray.

But that's just my perspective ; )

[Shiolar]

But, although a lot of minorities attend schools in poorer areas, just as many whites also attend such schools, and thus suffer the same problems when it comes to poorer education. The thought also occurs that it's somewhat unfair to have someone who's worked hard to get a good education being passed over in favour of someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't have such good qualifications. Doesn't that somewhat devalue the effort the higher qualified one has put into their education?

I suspect the problem mostly lies with different cultures and backgrounds resulting in people who just aren't suited to certain jobs. You don't meet many non-white accountants, but on the other hand, you meet MANY Asian doctors, dentists and vets. It's really quite pointless to enforce quotas when the numbers of people drawn to a particular job will never match up to the actual population ratios.

You could have an accountancy firm in the middle of a mostly black community, and most of the employees will still be white or Asian. Most of Plymouth's nurses are Asian, even though the population of the city is almost entirely white. It really makes quotas quite pointless.

And... I think that it's impossible to make it so that every person in the country has perfectly equal income and background. The government are trying hard to do it, something which is to my utter disgust. Not that I don't believe in equality, because I really do. I just don't believe that taxing all those who work hard in order to provide economic equality to those who refuse to work is really very fair. But that's a subject that really has very little to do with this, save for illustrating the British government trying to fix yet another problem in a way that ultimately fixes nothing... *shrugs*

[Shard]

Well that all leads to another whole discussion about edumacation

The problem is that while free education IS technically speaking available to every American citizen, the *quality* of that education is HORRIBLY affected by the neighborhood and the financial situation of the surrounding area.

Case in point: I lived in Clairemont, a community of (then) about 85 thousand people situated well within the city but not in a 'downtown' area. All suburbia and old Navy housing with clonehomes running all around canyons. While the neighborhood at the top of the hills (where I lived) was middle to lower income, the one or two 'canyon' developments housed nothing but middle to higher income *exclusively white* families. They didn't make up for the fact that most of the people in the neighborhood were less than middle class incomes, the taxes for the school system meant that our schools locally did not get computers, did not have many advanced classes, did not have a science lab, etc etc. We *did* have a music teacher which today is a rarity.

But my ex, who is only 1 year younger than me but lived in what is a basically 'old money' area of the city, the schools there had a full computer lab, science courses that were advanced even for jr high, and the like - and he hadn't realized that schools *didn't* get the same equipment when I would complain about my early education. Our high school had 'gate' classes, the seminars and advanced pre-college courses available, but didn't have a functional computer in our seminar room until 4 years after I graduated (in 1985)...

Plus, you have to look at the terrible pay rate of educators in this country. They're among the lowest paid in the WORLD, have haphazard standards, and are now (read the 5th Harry Potter book yet? UMBRIGE IS REAL...) being subjected to ridiculous standards by an administration that gets paid up to 3x what the teachers make. Add to that having to go to a school in a bad neighborhood where crime is rampant? A lot of teachers can't do it, or won't do it, and I can hardly say I blame them.

Goes back to: poverty is rampant in the country, and by that I mean RAMPANT. The government is literally doing nothing to solve the problems of inequitable pay for *equal* work, I mean hell, women still make less than 60% of men's cap salaries for the same duties - when they get promoted into them anyway which is equally rare. Poverty and poor education combine to make *anyone* living in a 'poor place' less able to compete in a work force. It doesn't matter what color or gender you are, if you weren't able to attend school because of the shotgun murders or the drug deals on each corner? basically you're still screwed.

Too small baby steps, in my opinion, are being taken by the government. I'm always pissed enough to vote for people who have the *background* of education for school boards or even higher positions, because they *know* what it's like...

Anyway, that's the meat of the problem as I see it, which has to be fixed before real equality CAN be implimented. But my own step is to assume it and judge purely by experience and ability, rather than some hidden agenda.

[Xalia]

*forces herself to stay out of education issue* You do /NOT/ want to get /me/ of all people started on education... >.>

[Mystic Dragon]

:3 Actually, I'd love to hear the view point of someone on the inside.

[Xalia]

XD I'm in too good a mood right now to tell you exactly how I feel about the current educational system (in California anyways) and don't really want to spoil my good mood! If you really want to know I'll post something on Monday while I'm stuck at work and hating it! XD