Pern Fandom as Triggering Content

[Dray]

I'm just wondering how y'all feel about parts of the Pern fandom that take issue with 'forced' flights and the like?

I haven't seen much mention of awareness on this forum that sometimes flight scenes can be triggery for people. Then again, we don't tend to get characters as dramatic (read: tragic backstories involving sexual abuse,) as in RP sites. Where do you stand in the fandom? I'm curious.

[delyar]

I think it's really awesome that people are finally having a discussion about the problematic elements engrained in the canon of Pern and how it's been brought into fandom (because it's always good to be aware of this kind of thing, to be able to talk about it and to avoid perpetuating -isms without realizing it). This isn't just limited to forced flights but includes the portrayal of male homosexuality (feminine men can only Impress greens and will often commit suicide at the loss of their weyrmate) and the lack of female homosexuality, the lack of people of colour (some roleplay sites have had limits on POC which is really racist) and the glossing over of classism inherent in the caste system of Holder vs non Holder as well as so much inherent sexism.

So yeah, I think this is a really cool discussion and I find it kind of sad that people are actually defending sites that encouraged non-consensual sex, homophobia, racism, sexism and classism in the name of "staying true to canon" instead of acknowledging it and fostering the creation of safer spaces.

[StarFyre]

Mmmm. First, let me preface this with: it's late and it's been a long time since I've read/examined honest to dog Pern canon, so if I blatantly misrecall something, smack me, neh?

That out of the way? Good. I'm going to blatantly pitch out everything and anything I recall on McCaffrey's opinions on her own written work, where I can separate it from said work.

1) Forced Flights.
Honestly, with the way the bonding between dragon and rider is portrayed (in some places and not in others, iirc), I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "forced flight" - it'd take a damn eunuch to not become aroused by being effectively linked mentally to a beast going through heat. And with how Weyr's are portrayed later in the series (insular, pulling mainly from Weyrbrats for candidates, etc), I'd be surprised if the humans of the Weyrs haven't somehow evolved over the millennia to better suit such a circumstance. That aside, the world is in a sort of "enlightened Dark Ages", which means that everyone NOT of the Weyrs probably goes all twisty inside once they realize exaaaaactly what bonding that lumbering behemoth actually means.

Non-consensual? I'd say yes and no - a creature "in heat" (which I am going to assume the humans are by proxy of mindmelding with beasts who are in heat) thinks of nothing but sating those urges. It is primal and it is simply about reproduction - nature isn't kind, end of story. Potentially triggery as soon as the heat has passed? Yes. Where do you draw the line, if you can? I don't know. Frankly, as much as I enjoy the occasion bit of smutty rp between characters perfectly in control of themselves.... well, I don't see the point in rping two creatures mating, which is all that's happening during a flight if you consider the humans subsumed by the bond. And if you don't... why are you saying they humans are forced to go at it like bunnies? If they have not entered into heat, humans are generally capable of deciding yes and no. AND (although this isn't canon), if they are in heat, and one doesn't want to get involved in such a thing, there's always the ability to close and lock the door, like you'd throw a cat in heat into a cage until she's out of it. I absolutely cannot imagine, with the level of technology available to them (birth control is rather limited - what about those riders who don't want to become pregnant?) that there wouldn't be at least a few situations where a low ranking queenrider isolates herself as her dragon goes into heat.

2) Homosexuality
Aaah, our old friend homosexuality. Ignoring the lack of females going at it, and the blatant "greenriders are automagically gay" that abounds... First off, phobias aside, Pern was colonized by a relatively small population that was almost immediately put into a very, very bad position. I don't remember what death-tolls were mentioned in the First Fall that happened, but anything that came that unexpectedly and that violently couldn't have done much good for their numbers. Hence, an immediate need to raise the population to acceptable levels in order to escape die-off - at this point, "non-reproductive" partnerships become veeeeery frowned upon, because they're not doing anything for the population except to help it stagnate. Thus, such things are pushed aside, labeled as unacceptable, and a taboo develops that continues on in the mindset of society, especially in more distant and small Holds where population is limited and every hand is needed. (Actually, homosexuality aside, this mindset would reflect on ANY partnership that did not bear fruit within a certain period of time. I have no doubt that, especially among the more inbred Hold Lords, there are more than one "purebred" Lordling who isn't actually related to his father, just so that no rumor of impotency would begin to circulate. And women who cannot bear would likely be relegated to truly menial and degrading tasks.)

Is it right? I've seen sheep, dogs, and cats engage in homosexual relations (ah-ah-ah, and none of that "they're just expressing dominance!" that I know is on the tip of some people's tongues - mom had one ram who absolutely refused to cover ewes, even when they were in heat. Shame, too, he had really pretty chocolate brown wool, but what can you do?), so such things do exist in nature. It is not, however, in the best interest of a population, and humans are perfectly capable of making (and far too willing to make) a society wide edict that such things are Not Done. Just look at the problem that exists in our current society on the argument of gay rights and who can bed whom (and really, why are we so interested in what Joe Next Door is doing c.c;; ) - and this is even after some of the cultures of our world have seen nothing really wrong with men bedding men and women bedding women. Pern, where I am assuming a population wide "PROCREATE OR WE DIE DAMMIT!" order went out early on, is not going to up and change easily or quickly.

Alright, back on greenriders == gay. ... I'm just going to point back up at Forced Flight at refer to the fact that the greenrider is bonded to an in heat female and leave it at that. And while I imagine that greens that pair with males tend to pair with males who can accept such a thing... well.

3) Racism.
Errrrrrr... Okay. I don't have any of my books on hand, but was there ever mention of people of race or color (beyond Kit Ping and Windflower) being included in the colonization? Also, I'll refer back to the homophobia section on the prerogative to procreate as much as possible, combined with the limited selection of partners and genetic variability (and, really, we're already within ~99% of each other. Humans have the least genetic variability of any creature on this planet), to point out that over the millennia the sheer genetics of the matter are going to mean that you're going to get a rather "flat" race. Sure, you'll have regional variations like a propensity in one region to have slanted eyes, or for another place to have only green eyes, or another place to have a slightly different skin tone (if it's not just the fact that they, say, live in the desert region and thus are usually tanned more than others). But genetics says that you're not going to magically get something radically different, even in the (what is it, two thousand years?) that they've been there without some seed for the variant to arise from.

And no. They're not going to re-evolve dark skin like we evolved pale skin, given that the evolution of dark skin is used to protect the body from the sun. They burrow into mountains, live in dank and dark cottages with metal shutters and barely enough light to move around in, surround themselves with so much rock that the primary task of young children is to "change the glows" so they can see where they're going! If anything, they're going to evolve eyes sensitive to sunlight and skin pale enough to take advantage of every hint of light they can get. If dark skin were to emerge, it would be on the Southern Continent, and I don't believe that there was a long-term active civilization down there for long enough to do more than begin the first steps along the path of going dark.

So, as much as I may sound like a racist... no. I don't think people of color really belong in a Pern rp. Simple natural selection says that, even if there were darker skinned people on the colony ships to begin with, the living conditions they put themselves in for so long would quickly remove them from the equation. Darker skin permits less vitamin D production, which leads to some nasty health problems that would end up culling those with such a "disadvantage" and leaving the paler skinned people to continue on as best they could.

4) Sexism.
... Homophobia rant, redux. Look, in a society that's practically living hand to mouth, women are important. They're the only way to continue the race, and as such must be protected. As a woman in the current "we are all equals!!!" society, do I appreciate the posturing, the women as not just second class but property, and the rank "You can't do this because you're a woman!" that exists in the books? No. But I see where it's coming from.

Menolly is the daughter of a Sea Holder. It's a small community. Small enough that everyone pretty much knows everyone. In a community that small, every person counts, every able hand, every strong arm, every capable bearer. The fact that she wants to, in effect, run away and become a Bard (wanderers, ne'er-do-wells, all around "slackers" in the eyes of those who work in physically demanding day-in-day-out labor, no matter how much they appreciate the news and the learning that the Bards bring with them, along with the ability to lift spirits and so on that comes with music) is not just unheard of, it's downright heretical. Such a life doesn't truly lead to continuing the species that well.

As a side note, I'm interested - has the society, on top of being restricted in movement, become top-heavy with males? My recollections of the books are vague, but for some reason I'm recalling a very heavy impression of more males than females, even outside of the weyrs.

As with the racism comment... I really can't help but say "no, I really don't think you can change the sexism inherent in the society". Not without getting them out of the survival-mode that they currently exist in, and especially if you play the male-heavy society card!

5) Classim.
My house is better than yours.

You have people living in huge, fully protected forts sealed with gigantic metal doors with sliding bolts holding them tight. Dragons couldn't penetrate some of those places, especially the earliest ones like Fort Hold that were carved with the remains of the colony's technology. They live in comfort, security, and the deep seated knowledge that they can slam that door shut and hole up for as long as they need so long as they take the precaution to stockpile food and glows. From these places, the most powerful families spread their influence over the land like kings over kingdoms.

Then you have those living in smaller, but no less well protected domains. Perhaps they don't have quite the comfort, or quite the security, but their home isn't about to disappear on them if something bad happens. Perhaps they can't slam that door shut and hole up forever, but they can stay hidden for a fair amount of time, long enough to survive almost anything. From these places, the most powerful families spread their more limited influence over the land - they don't have the manpower to claim as much land as the true "Kings" in their vast fortresses, but they can still claim land, even if they often look to a larger "King", like Duke to a King.

Then you have the "others", living as they can, wherever they can, however they can. Stone cottages in the fields. Rough cut caves sealed with rock doors. Wherever they can find safety. They live day to day, constantly looking up to see if threadfall is on the horizon, and hoping that the next fall won't be their last. They don't have time to do more than live day to day. They have no power, no prestige, nothing to make the great Lords in their comfortable Forts sit up and look at them twice. They are peasants, the outliers, the ones that contribute as they can to a society that does not, and will not, respect them.

As I've said earlier, Pern is "enlightened Dark Ages". Classim rather comes with the territory.

6) Summary.
Is Pern inherently flawed? Yes. It can't be anything but. You can't have a world in that great of a cycling danger and not have issues of classism, sexism, and some amount of homophobia. A society living on the brink (and they are, no matter how 'cute' Anne makes it appear to be. No matter how well off Harper Hall is, or the Weyrs are, or Fort or Benden Holds are, they are living on an uneasy edge) cannot exist without such things.

Homophobia in our society arose from the Victorian era of prudishness and sexual repression. I don't believe that homophobia in Pern would have arisen from the same mental "place", but rather as a society actively shunning that which does not encourage it to survive. Would it be any less ugly? Unlikely. In fact it might be more ugly, more shameful to the person who wishes to be someone of the same sex, more likely to end in death of someone. Why? Because when it's not just "Oh, this is morally wrong and you shouldn't do it! Tsktsk." but "You are a traitor who actively wants to see our whole society die because you won't procreate to help us survive!", the pressure becomes much, much harder to bear. Combine that with the effect that lack of sunlight has on the psyche and I imagine there are quite a few suicides, especially during the winter months of a Fall. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of boys who get Searched and impress Green/Blue and some Brown hoped to get themselves Searched just so they can escape society's pressure. As soon as it becomes expected of them to automagically become gay (or at least bi) upon bonding with such low ranking dragons (that fill out the vast amount of the weyr's strength!), they can relax and be themselves. Among people who, for the most part, understand.

Racism, I believe, is more a player-applied ism than anything. I don't honestly believe there are other races to -ism at in Pern, and as such the best they can really do is "My region is better than your region." Sort of like the English pointing a sharp stick at the French and snarling. Except without even the language barrier. Pern is homogeneous for the most part. They have regional slang and turns of phrase, but, and this is important, they all talk the same language, they all fear the same things, they all pay homage to the same "overlords" - the dragons. Now, outside of Fall this changes a bit, in that the regions can get huffy and maybe even get into a few tussles, kill off a few ruling families, etcetc, but for the most part... well, having a shared fear is a very good way to get people to overlook differences.

There's no escaping classism. Write your stories about the Lordling falling in love with the peasant farmer in a stone hut, and if it's good I'll even read it, I'm a bit of a sap that way, but it won't do anything for the root of the matter. The Lords have their vast Forts, and the peasants have their stone huts. You cannot equalize everyone.

Ditto sexism, especially if the society is actually male-heavy. There's absolutely no escaping it in that case, though that might lead to a more matriarchal society than Pern displays, so I'm torn on whether I think it's male-heavy or not. The only way to escape "females are property" is if there are vastly more females than males, in which case, like in the USA during WWII, women will take over traditional male roles due to the lack of hands. And I'm sorry girls, but there is a biological origin for this behind it all - women generally are not, and cannot, become as strong or powerful (physically) as a man of the same type. Sure, speed and agility tend to be better for women, but most societies rely on physical strength to determine worth. (Yes, I'm well aware that there are women who can curbstomp most men without breaking a sweat, and men who, even if they exercised all their life, couldn't become as strong as an average women, but they are exceptions.)

So. Forced flights... I still really don't know what to say here. I don't see the point in rping the scenes out with the humans beyond "X leaves with Y" and then pick it back up in the morning. As for the dragons, it's fun to play around with the chase just to see who wins, but that's the point. Do I believe that X and Y will have sex in the fade-out? Yes. Why? Because I rather follow the school of thought that they're effectively falling into heat/rut along with their dragons. As soon as you take that assumption out of the picture, all bets are off. No matter how aroused someone is, if they aren't subjected to the absolutely, undeniable need to mate that heat/rut introduces, they can (theoretically) deny the urge to go all the way. Do I think "omgyoumustdothis!"? No. As I said - reluctant chars could barricade themselves away before the heat/rut hits and ride it out alone (or with a dedicated partner). To take the choice of the players away, to assume that everything must happen in such a way, when we purposely lock mares and bitches and queens (female cats) away when their heat is "inconvenient" to us.... well. I think I'd tell the gm exactly where to shove it. The idea that we can control the lives of the animals around us but not ourselves is rather ridiculous.

tldr;
The concept of forcing a player to play a situation that doesn't sit well with them is ridiculous, homophobia is likely a societal stigma based on the need to keep the population high, the concept of racism in Pern is likely laughable due to the sheer homogeneous nature of the people of Pern, sexism is an inescapable societal stigma based on the need to keep the population high, and classism is an inescapable result of some people living in Big Honkin Mountains and others living in tiny stone cottages in the open field. Also, I get really wordy at 3 to 5 AM.

[Yakima]

I couldn't view the LJ blog but I know Falas Weyr pushes the boundaries of some of cannon Pern. As for forcing all my green-blue riders to be gay (unless greenriders are female), I simply ignore it. I have several that probbaly are but unless I had a specific weyrmate in mind for them I simply don't get into their love-life. *shrugs* I've put Falas through so much magical stuff and I think I have enough well-rounded characters that nothing is rosy-posy in Falas or the FGPC. I hate RL drama but I have no problem shoving my characters into drama *points to Philippe*. As for forced flghts being the standard...I think a lot of our, including most of mine, give a the bond of the dragon a choice. No, I don't always like the fact that riders are forced to pair with their dragon's mate but they arn't stuck with them either. I never did like the part where a green (or gold) in heat would effect (affect?) everyone else in the weyr, including the younger children (I read that in one of the books...but I think that was one she coe-wrote with her son).

Either way, I've never given much thought or cared. It wasn't my world and I have the power to go make my own world with dragons and do what I want. Not everything can be perfect or ideal in a story. If Pern had been that idealistic, I probably never would have read them or made my online Weyr.

*ends tiny rant type thingy*

[Xalia]

My memory of the Pern books suggested that while the golds and greens must rise and mate it wasn't so much that you /couldn't/ control the results, but more that most people didn't take the effort to. When Mnementh catches Ramoth, F'lar recalls a flash of surprise when he realizes Lessa is a virgin and tries to slow down to avoid hurting her...when their son's bronze catches a green who's rider was virtually raped during the green's first flight, he fights off the dragon-lust long enough to soothe her and get through to her that she has a choice in her dragon's flight, leading me to believe that while the end-result is always the same, the dragon-lust doesn't have to be all-consuming for the rider. Honestly I think the weyr culture was such that no one really cared about homosexuality or bisexuality. When several bronze riders are banished they come back later complaining that no one thought to send a green rider with them to give the bronzes some relief and yet our assumption has always been that a bronze-rider would be a straight male because a gold-rider is a straight female. My impression of Pern canon is that while the Holds were /not/ accepting of homosexuality or bisexuality (which bronzes flying both greens and golds while green riders were traditionally male implies of the bronze-riders) the weyrs weren't really /accepting/ of it so much as it was a way of life. They didn't stop to question what their dragons did, they lived on the edge of death during Threadfall so most of them were hardy, comfortable in who and what they were and green- and gold-riders were expected to make a choice in who caught their dragon. If you remember, white Ruth was written as having no sexual urges, probably because McCaffrey didn't want to have to deal with the decidedly straight J'xom having to come to grips with having to bed a man if his dragon won a flight. She even covered it in one of the books. J'xom sees a green rising to mate and asks Ruth if he wants to chase. Ruth declines and not long after J'xom sees the cluster of blue and brown riders circling the green rider being ushered inside and feels ill from the realization of what his dragon chasing would mean. I think that's part of why before J'xom and Ruth, if you impressed you gave up your old life. Because the weyr was never meant to live within the rules of Hold society, which as Starfyre pointed out would be decided against any non-fertile union. Keep in mind that while your blue may catch a green, only pairs who enjoyed that union stayed together as weyrmates, so a straight brown rider might bed a greenrider because his dragon caught the green, but that didn't mean he had to move in and be in a relationship with the rider. Weyrmates outside of the gold and bronze-riders are spoken of as few and far between, and some riders even had a non-rider mate with whom they had children. The goldriders and weyrfolk alone couldn't account for all the werybrats, right?