Breeding Project Idea w/ Genetics

[Yakima]

Okay, not sure about this but I've been toying with the idea for a long time since I created this code. I call it the 'Nexus Generic Genetic Code' (NGGC for short...cause abbreviated things make them look more scientific. lol) It's meant to do what Dray and JKat started but, since I didn't understand theirs in their format, I tried this. *shrugs* Nothing wrong with theirs but this is meant to work more like genetics with the two alleles/genes things. Here is the info I have typed up for it so far (and 3 generations of examples to show hybrids).

Nexus Generic Genetic Code (NGGC)

This is a code I created for my Anarian species when breeding them together. It can be used by others to limit what they feel is dominate for their species, and what is recessive. It is simple for pure-breds, but complicated for mutts and can get VERY long. It simply is a way to try to help decide what a dragon looks like and allows for certain traits to be passed along depending on what the species creator wanted

Here is a list of 'alleles' or 'lotus' that are involved in this code. I've tried to simplify it enough to allow for people's creativity to not be squashed but also allow certain traits to be dominate or recessive.

Basic Template Building Alleles
B/b – Body Type
This determines the style and shape of the body. It also includes the skin, hide, fur, or scales that are present. B is dominate for the species body type; b is recessive for the species body type.

W/w – Wing Type
This determine the style, size and shape of the wings. Feathered wings, pinioned wings, how many pinions (their shape and size), and everything that deals with the wings. If a dragons does not have wings, they can still have W but it means that 'no wings' is dominate for their species. If paired with a W from a dragon with wings, the creator will have to compromise between the two styles. W is dominate for the species wing type (or lack of); w is recessive for the species wing type (or lack of).

H/h – Horn Type
This determine the style, length, and color(s) of the horns, if any. If a dragon has HH but has no horns, then 'no horns' is dominate for it. H is dominate for the species horn type (or lack of); h is recessive for the species horn type (or lack of).

T/t – Tail Type
Not only does this determine the length, shape, and ornaments at the end (or on) the tail, but how many tails, as well. T is dominate for the species tail type; t is recessive for the species tail type.

Detailing Alleles
U/u – Underside Decorations
For anything that is found under the neck or belly such as plating, fur, or feathers (most often plating, however). U is dominate for underside decorations (or lack of); u is recessive for underside decorations (or lack of).

N/n – Neck Decorations
Some dragons have fins, some have spikes, some have feathers and some have fire. This allele set determines if they are dominate in passing it on or not. If there is nothing on their neck they can still have N because they are dominate for no neck decorations. N is dominate for the species neck decorations (or lack of); n is recessive for neck decorations (or lack of).

O/o – Other Decorations
Niteshan 'jelly blobs' are part of this. Anything that really doesn't fit into the above categories can be here. It's a good idea to list them so people know what the 'other stuff' is especially if it's dominate. O is dominate for other decorations (or lack of); o is recessive for other decorations (or lack of).

Coloration Alleles
C/c – Coloration
Even if a species has a genetic code for their colors, you can still cross breed them – though you really can't combine the codes. This is a 'what ever looks best' type thing. If you have a Pernese breed with an Alskyrian with the resulting code of Cpn/Cal, the offspring would be a mix of Pern and Alskyrian solid colors. If the code had been Cpn/cal, more Pernese colors would be present then Alskyrian. Likewise, if the code was Calcpn, more Alskyrian colors would be seen. Of course, it's hard with this example being that they have similar colors in both but you get the point, eh? C is dominate for the species color rules; c is recessive for the species color rules

P/p – Patterns
A speckled Pernse breeds with a stripped mutt. The Pernese is ppn/ppn; the mutt Pp (skipping breed codes for this one). Pernese are not suppose to be anything but the three main colors, and solid, thus the speckles will only show through if the code is ppn/p. If it is P/ppn, then the stripes will be dominate. You can always have the speckles lighter and call it co-dominate. Again, this can vary depending on the breeder and their preferences. P is dominate for patterns (or lack of); p is recessive for patterns (or lack of).

E/e – Eyes
Eye types and colors can vary with different species. Thus this code 'decides' what the shape, pupil type, and coloration of the eyes. E is dominate for the species eye type and coloration; e is recessive for the species eye type and coloration.

Specific Alleles
S/s – Size
Species come in many different size ranges. This helps determine the range of the offspring, not their exact size. Pernese, for example, range from 20 to 40 feet long (which is about 5'5” to 11' in height). Kijana are 4' to 6' in height. Should you get SS or ss the offspring would share a median height of the two species. Ss would either be Pernese sizes or Kijana, depending on which one is dominate. S is dominate for the species size range; s is recessive for the species size range.

A/a – Abilities
We've gone wild with abilities. XD But what goes to the offspring? I try to take a bit of both but here is a way to determine if you get more or less from each parent. A is dominate for the species abilities (magical and scientific); a is recessive for the species abilities (magical and scientific).

What the Code looks like in the End:
Bb Ww Hh Tt Uu Nn Oo Cc Pp Ee Ss Aa

While this is simple looking enough, it can get complicated with mixed breeds. Lets do an example.

We'll start with something simple (note not all the codes I used are the real codes). Pernese x Alskyrian.

Pernese: Bb Ww hh tt Uu NN OO Cc pp ee Ss AA
Alskyrian: BB Ww HH Tt UU Nn Oo Cc Pp ee Ss Aa

Now, when we combine the codes, which code goes where is lost. So, we add two letters after each code to determine the traits. pn for Pernese and al for Alskyrian.

Pernese:
Bpn/bpn Wpn/wpn hpn/hpn tpn/tpn Upn/upn Npn/Npn Opn/Opn Cpn/cpn ppn/ppn epn/epn Spn/spn Apn/Apn
Alskyrian:
Bal/bal Wal/wal hal/hal tal/tal Ual/ual Nal/Nal Oal/Oal Cal/cal pal/pal eal/eal Sal/sal Aal/aal

(Told ya it would get confusing and long...don't panic; there is reason to my madness. lol)

The hybrid code would be this (note there is endless possibilities, I will just be picking one to demonstrate the code).

Bal/bpn Wpn/wal hpn/hal tpn/tal Ual/upn Npn/Nal Opn/Oal Cpn/cal ppn/pal epn/eal Spn/sal Apn/aal

What does this translate to?

Body: Alskryian type body
Wings: Pernese style wings
Horns: combination of both species – so perhaps head-knobs and Alskyrian horns
Tail: combination of both species – since both are similar, the tail-ends would be combined
Underside: combination of both species – since neither have anything nothing is their
Neck Decorations: combination of both species – smaller neck-ridges then on the Pernese
Other Decorations: combination of both species – neither have anything so there is nothing
Coloration: Pernese rules apply heavily then Alskyrians so they are gender and sized linked
Patterns: combination of both species – for the most part, neither are known for patterns so none
Eyes: combination of both species – we'll go with a Pernese shaped eye but the Alskyrian iris and color rules
Size: Pernese size rules – most will range from 20-40 and follow the same rules as the Pernese
Abilities: Pernese abilities; perhaps give them fire breath rather then assisted fire breath to show their Alskyrian heritage.

And now, say we take one of those offspring and breed them with a Kijana!

Here is the Kijana's code
bki/bki Wki/Wki hki/hki Tki/Tki Uki/uki Nki/nki oki/oki Cki/cki Pki/Pki Eki/eki Ski/Ski Aki/Aki

Generation 2 Results:
bpn/bki wal/Wki hal/hki tpn/Tki Ual/uki Npn/nki Oal/oki Cal/cki ppn/Pki Epn/eki sal/Ski aal/Aki

Body: Combo – has fur like the Kijana but has more of a the Pernese body type (which was dormant in the parent)
Wings: Kijana type wings – has the feathering and dragon-like wing membranes
Horns: has Alskyrian horns and Kijana's ears
Tail: Kijana's tail with long hair at the end
Underside: nothing
Neck Decorations: Pernese neck ridges still present; no mane
Other Decorations: no other decorations
Coloration: follows Alskyrian rules more then the Kijana's horse-like ones (could play a bit with the Agouti gene on some of the colors, however. )
Patterns: no patterns
Eyes: will follow more of the Pernese's shape and 'color style'; I'll give them the Kijana pupil style however
Size: Kijana's size rage more then Alskyrian so they will be a smaller type of dragon
Abilities: Kijana's abilities dominate with a bit of the Alskyrian's abilities (we'll give them fire breath! )

Now, lets breed them with a Tavrayn!
Btv/btv Wtv/wtv Htv/Htv Ttv/Ttv Utv/Utv ntv/ntv Otv/Otv Ctv/ctv Ptv/Ptv Etv/Etv Stv/stv atv/atv

Generation 3 Results:
bki/Btv wal/wtv hki/Htv Tki/Ttv uki/Utv Npn/ntv Oal/Otv Cal/ctv ppn/Ptv eki/Etv Ski/stv aal/atv

Body: Tavrayn body type more dominate
Wings: Combination with glowing wings and feathers on arms
Horns: Tavrayn horns and Kijana's ears
Tail: Kijana's long tail, less mane-stuff since Tavrayn's are very plain
Underside: Tavrayn plating on neck and belly
Neck Decorations: no neck decorations
Other Decorations: no other decorations
Coloration: still follows Alskyrian color rules more then Tavrayns
Patterns: I consider two-tone wings a pattern; their will be a lot of two-toned babies in this clutch
Eyes: Tavrayn eye shape, pupils and color rules
Size: Kijana size still dominate so still small dragons
Abilities: Tavrayn abilities combined with Alskyrian telepathy

No, it isn't perfect and it's not meant to hinder people. I tried to make it less confining. How someone interprets Tki/Ttv or Bal/bpn could differ greatly (that and the generator/dice could give different results each time for endless combinations!) Realistically, each baby should get separate codes but...er...I for one don't want to draw 3-10 or so different templates for each baby so it's a clutch-result (like we've always done...). Of course, Size and Abilities (Perhaps color and patterns, too) could always change between offspring but the basic body shape and everything could be the same....)

What I would like to try is to do a few generations (drawing wise) to 'test' the code with more then words. I would allow people to send in other dragons but they would need the code and that could get complicated with hybrids (though you could probably look at the image and stats to figure it out, I guess...). For pure-bred species the creator should be the one to make the code to limit and 'control' the traits as they want them to be. I don't know how many generations I would get out; it depends on if I draw a new template for each one or do something like I did for the OEM clutch where I used the same template and altered it for the species.

Just a thought. Any opinions or anything? I know it's complicated but, yeah...had to share. XD

[JKatkina]

Wow, Yakima, you put a lot of work into this! It shows, actually. I can't think of any big criticisms outright, though I may have questions or suggestions if I do up a species code for one of mine. Problems most often pop up when things are put to the test. Maybe I'll start whipping together something for some asandus type or other now.

One thing I might suggest is that "neck decorations" seems out of place. Maybe changing it to something like "dorsal decorations", to encompass ridges that go down the entire back or such? That way you could also change "belly" to "ventral". XD Sounds more science-tastic. Maybe it could have modifiers that confine the "dorsal decoration" to one part of the neck or body, and/or you could simply include things like manes to the general "other decorations" category. Actually, I might even include "horn type" in the "other decoration" category -- horns aren't vital to something being a dragon, and I think the "main" alleles should be things that are major or intrinsic to the idea of dragon-ness. That said, I'd consider adding "head type" to the list of main alleles -- then you could attach things like "horn type" as a detailing allele to "head type".

Whoof. There are a bajillion alleles out there that could be included! This is gonna get crazy; anticipate it.

It might also be handy to refer to the Universal Size Chart when handling sizes just to keep everything on the same page, as it were.

Also, "lotus" is a flower. "Locus" is the genetic term you're looking for, and "locii" is its plural.

*edit* I just thought of a question.

For a species that one major variable doesn't differ in, ie my askan asandae always have wings, there is no "recessive wing type". They'd all be winged, so all of them would be wing-dominant -- Wav/Wav for winged askans. There will be no recessives for not-winged, because it isn't possible in the confines of the species. You put that against a species that is only non-winged, you get Wav/Wxx where they both mean different things, but they are BOTH listed as dominant.

For example, you seem to have genetics present in a Pernese dragon for 'recessive wings' -- but I've never heard of a non-winged pernese. Where did this come from?

This is going to happen a lot with purebreeds, and you won't get interesting things like "recessive" body types popping up because of it. How do you resolve this? Will it be arbitrary, clutch-maker chooses? That seems to defeat the purpose of this code, as then everything will still just be clutch-maker-defined. Will it always be co-dominant, or will there perhaps be some modifier that defines whether the particular gene is co-dominant or resolved some other way? That could be interesting, but would require some larger-scale hierarchy of genetic dominance between species.

Or am I just totally not getting this? D:

*edit again* Hurr, I'm trying to work my way through this and getting confused.

Is this supposed to be treated like... Bav and bav would both stand for "general askan asandus body type", rather than two different body types, and whether I define them as Bav or bav depends only on how dominant I want them to be in regards to other species? That's simplistic, but it could work I guess...

I guess my confusion lies in, as soon as you start saying "Wav is dominant wing type for this species, which is winged, and wav is recessive wing type for this species, which is not-winged", then it starts being trouble because you'll never get a wav anywhere. Do you kinda get what I'm saying?

[Yakima]

One thing I might suggest is that "neck decorations" seems out of place. Maybe changing it to something like "dorsal decorations", to encompass ridges that go down the entire back or such? That way you could also change "belly" to "ventral". XD Sounds more science-tastic. Maybe it could have modifiers that confine the "dorsal decoration" to one part of the neck or body, and/or you could simply include things like manes to the general "other decorations" category. Actually, I might even include "horn type" in the "other decoration" category -- horns aren't vital to something being a dragon, and I think the "main" alleles should be things that are major or intrinsic to the idea of dragon-ness. That said, I'd consider adding "head type" to the list of main alleles -- then you could attach things like "horn type" as a detailing allele to "head type".

Hmm...yes...truthfully i'm trying to keep it simple but I do like the suggestions of dorsal and ventral. I'll change that in the word file. And having H/h mean 'head' instead of horns though I included the head shape to the body. This makes more sense since i divided up 'tail' and 'wings'. Perhaps should add L/l for 'legs, too, considering that... Perhaps on the 'head' allele is where horns are considered, too? Could be a judgment call unless you really want to get technical. lol

It might also be handy to refer to the Universal Size Chart when handling sizes just to keep everything on the same page, as it were.

Well, yeah, it's meant to. Pernese span from small to medium, Kijana small to medium-small so a cross their would, depending on the code, be the same as the Kijana or the Pernese or a medium of both. Number wise, as least. Most offspring, averaged, would be medium-small I think.

Also, "lotus" is a flower. "Locus" is the genetic term you're looking for, and "locii" is its plural.

*smacks head on desk* yeah, my brain forgets that sometimes while I'm typing. heehee

For a species that one major variable doesn't differ in, ie my askan asandae always have wings, there is no "recessive wing type". They'd all be winged, so all of them would be wing-dominant -- Wav/Wav for winged askans. There will be no recessives for not-winged, because it isn't possible in the confines of the species. You put that against a species that is only non-winged, you get Wav/Wxx where they both mean different things, but they are BOTH listed as dominant.

For example, you seem to have genetics present in a Pernese dragon for 'recessive wings' -- but I've never heard of a non-winged pernese. Where did this come from?

This is going to happen a lot with purebreeds, and you won't get interesting things like "recessive" body types popping up because of it. How do you resolve this? Will it be arbitrary, clutch-maker chooses? That seems to defeat the purpose of this code, as then everything will still just be clutch-maker-defined. Will it always be co-dominant, or will there perhaps be some modifier that defines whether the particular gene is co-dominant or resolved some other way? That could be interesting, but would require some larger-scale hierarchy of genetic dominance between species.

Or am I just totally not getting this? D:

*edit again* Hurr, I'm trying to work my way through this and getting confused.

Is this supposed to be treated like... Bav and bav would both stand for "general askan asandus body type", rather than two different body types, and whether I define them as Bav or bav depends only on how dominant I want them to be in regards to other species? That's simplistic, but it could work I guess...

I guess my confusion lies in, as soon as you start saying "Wav is dominant wing type for this species, which is winged, and wav is recessive wing type for this species, which is not-winged", then it starts being trouble because you'll never get a wav anywhere. Do you kinda get what I'm saying?

Yes, you're starting to get it.

*keeps what I typed before I read the end of your post. lol*

A 'recessive' gene means, if given next to another dragon who has a dominate their, say, body type, isn't seen (or not as much...again, left that as a judgment call to the artist). Say for Pernese I had Bpn/bpn. Half the time the build of the Pernese and their skin (hide) type are seen. The other half is not seen unless paired with another 'recessive' body type. If the 'recessive' bpn is paired with a dominate of another species, you will get to see more of the other species body type. Same with wings. Wpn/wpn. wpn doesn't mean the dragon is wingless - it's the style of wings. For your Asandus you just decide if their wing type is the dominate one or not. Like for the Niteshans, their wings disappear when they become adults, right? So, if you want that trait to be something strong in them (btw, i think the term would be hetro and homozygous, i think dominate/recessive is going to confuse more then you. lol) You would either have Wan/Wan or Wan/wan (making up a code for them...Asandus-Niteshan if you couldn't figure it out. lol). If you want it to be something that is NOT easy to pass on, you could make it wan/wan. Get it now? I think if I change them to homozygous and hetrozygous it would make more sense.

I'll try to lurk in the Chat room, too, if that helps. lol I work all seven days next week but most are short 4 hour shifts. >.< *jabs work's new 'fancy computer rendered schedule with a flaming stick*

[Kitsuneko]

Actually, hetero-and homozygous just indicates whether they have two copies of the same allele or different copies. A dragon that's homozygous dominant would have two copies of the dominant gene; homozygous recessive has two recessive alleles.
A heterozygous dragon would have two different alleles, a dominant and a recessive.
This is making me want to finish a side project I started a while back...

[Yakima]

I know, Kit. I think either way it's confusing but I also know that with paints they always test them for homozygous color (and blacks) because people want to make sure they get the color they want. It would kinda be the same here except it isn't for color only but for LOTS of other traits - and it's the species, not the dragon specifically. (which can be done if you think about it....but that might get TOO confusing and it's kinda complicated enough.) So yeah, a homozygous species, for color, would have either CC or cc, meaning either they WILL have most of their color-types shown or they won't unless the other gene is recessive. Heterozygous is Cc, meaning their is a 50/50 chance of what will happen.

*slinks off to bed after paging a few more dragons and giving my Bower candidate a page finally...*

[JKatkina]

Haha, this is starting to make sense to me, wicked. So just to clarify and solidify: the different alleles DO NOT mean different things, they just are there to let you know how dominant the trait is in regards to OTHER species. This isn't really a genetics program, then -- it's a selection program based loosely on genetics. That's cool, though -- an actual genetic code would be WAY WAY MORE complex if we wanted to define all of these traits. We can use this like genetics, but thinking of it as "a selection program" rather than "a genetics program" might free you up a little. :D

For example, in this system you could only ever get two traits codominant; you could never, for example, get a "head ornamentation" set like this guy's where he has Niteshan horns, a floofy mane, feathers, AND Hathian eye-horns. Opening it up to have some sort of modifier where you could include a third "allele" could be interesting. Just a thought, though; maybe that should wait till we've got a smooth system running already. :)

I had a thought: What about a system where "ornaments" relate directly to the major body part they are attached to? So for the "detailing" section, you would have "Wing details", "Body details", "Tail details" and "Head details" as well as "dorsal", "ventral" and maybe "horns" (though horns could probably be subsumed into "head", or subcategorized further!).

[JKatkina]

MORE THOUGHTS! I am so on a roll. XD

What if we had some soft-rules for dominance? What I was thinking of was:
-Two recessives on one locus combine
-Two dominants on one locus both express in some form

For example, say you had an askan head plate and niteshan curly horns. If you had them both as dominant, you would have a dragon with two niteshan curly horns behind or underneath an askan head plate. If you had two recessives, you would have like... a translucent askan head plate, or a curly head plate, or one big flat horn or however you wanted to combine them. That'd still allow for user preference, but it'd give us a set of soft rules.

Maybe for something like body, two dominants would result in like... taking specific traits and mashing them together, like one parent's body shape and the others' leg shapes or something, wheras two recessives would be a smooth blending of the two. Wings'd be harder. XD There'd have to be some user discretion there.

As for colors, it'd be interesting to split that off into a whole different section entirely, considering how complex we like our colors to get. XD Maybe we should bang out the body type/detailing/whatever first (the stuff that'd translate to lineart) and then later go back in and bang out a separate-but-related code for colors.

[Dray]

I think that this would be an interesting way to see how body-types would get built if you took some of the control out of our hands, though perhaps using a separate system for colours would be more useful.

Since this is an 'a OR b, a AND/OR b, a AND b' system, it only addresses what you can directly see on the parent. It doesn't take into account the variation of colours possible in the species (I'm thinking of Pernese quintet colours amongst others, for example.) let alone variations that could have been passed on from grandparents, etc. especially if the offspring had a multitude of species in its lineage! Tough stuff!

But I think that using this as a way to determine body-shapes would be a fun exercise. :D

[Yakima]

@Jkat: Yep, it's only based on genetics because it's a natural selection of things. And I know it limits still but still allows for user preference when breeding (which is why I did my 'test' run, too). I would like a way to get some way to still be able to come up with the guy you showed me, too. I just don't known enough about genetic stuff to know how to handle a third allele. I couldn't think of a way to take, for example, two dominate genes that are both expressed and have them "merge" into a single gene that can be passed on. I guess, even if that isn't a real rule in genetics, it could still work, being we're basing this on genetics rather then being real genetics. So, how about you have BpnBal and because both were dominate and seen, it becomes Bpnal? Could work for bpnpal=bpnal? *blinks* Will have to test that idea, too...

Maybe categorizing the details more would help that, tho. I'll have to see. The more things tho, the more letter's which can get annoying. lol I'm running out of letters. heehee *goes to write stuff down so she can play with them at work*

I left colors vague but it would be good to expand on them. I have patterns included but nothing else yet. Patterns were meant to incorporate A LOT of different things from stripes to color blending to whatever. (I had Dray's Bower project in mind at the time, lol).

I also kinda have the code lined up to have line art stuff first, then coloring stuff, then abilities and such. I have an idea to separate them further. Tarjal'Alkar, you are now my official ginnypig! Ha!

[Yakima]

What, instead of a REALLY LONG SINGLE LINE code we do something like this?

(body) B/b W/w H/h T/t
(details) U/u N/n O/o
(color) C/c P/p E/e
(other) S/s A/a

I think then we could have 'duplicate' letters in each area because they're 'separate codes' (will probably change U/u and N/n to something else like D/d for dorsal and V/v for ventral.

Also, as I was going to bed last night, I was thinking that if it was confusing, we could always use some kind of symbol to indicate that a gene means 'the absence of' a certain trait. Like I was thinking the (') because it's short. Or an (*) would work. So if you have a dragon with no patterns (my Tavrayn for example), you could write it as Ptv'/ptv' or Ptv*/ptv*; or Ptv-/ptv- (which I think i had in the original idea).

[Dray]

Shard's ferilons us an interesting system, where, for example, these go from most to least dominant: A! A* A' A (all being dominant) to a a' a* a! (all being recessive.) Each symbol indicates how much more dominant the gene is to the other, and would allow for several grades if you had some variety within your species that wouldn't fit into a simple Wal/wal gene. I'm not sure if she'd be okay with copying the system, but if so, it might help with playing around a little!

[Shard]

It's a much easier system. That's why I don't - with only the tribal and mutation traits as exceptions - use multiple letter combinations anywhere. Of course I HAVE used up pretty much every letter of the alphabet that looks different in upper and lower case, for it..

general appearance = G
Muzzle accessories = M
Neck fringe = N

etc. But yeah everything is made dominant or recessive in order of my notations after the letter !, *, ', (no mk). They reverse if there are more than 4 needed, though I only go up to 8 with those. I'm sure if there are 10 or even more options, different notations could easily be used.

In the case of multiple things being equally dominant, I do have a @ (I think I used that one? soemthing else maybe) for 'combine traits'. So if there's a ferilon with parents having leathery wings, and feathery ones on the other, there would be a strong chance that they'd just combine into feather tipped leather wings, or leather fingered feather topped ones.

I'd say that would just be a "roll for chance", perhaps each breed might come also with a "This is a highly dominant trait" percentage - and you look to that if there's any doubt about which appearance it would get. So even if two highly dominant genes clash, the one which has a better chance of dominating in general would 'win', or maybe two rolls and which ever gets below its 'challenge' farther wins (or, that's maybe the amount of combination you'd see?).

[JKatkina]

I think combining genes has potential, but also could possibly get absolutely insane as we end up with junk like bpnalavfi etc etc etc. There'd have to be a pretty clear set of rules, like... they only merge under certain circumstances, or maybe only two can merge and when a third comes in it boots one of the original two out (although that's basically just like having an extra allele then). There would have to be ways for them to breed out again, too, or everything would only gain complexity, rather than lose it. I like the basic idea, though! It can be massaged a little till it works.

Adding prefix and suffix symbols to genes to define dominance is not a bad idea either, but that does get into increasing levels of complexity that we might not really need, especially since we're still keeping some "soft" elements in this selection code for the sake of user choice. X3 IMHO, the simpler this code ends up being, the better, though I may be outvoted here!

A symbol for "one parent didn't have this gene" seems like a good idea, too! Then we could stop worrying about 'extras' having equivalencies in both parents. Like, askan irridescence would breed to something non-irridescent by giving its offspring a gene with a dud pair like IavI*. Then it could breed out without trouble too! Awesome!

[Yakima]

*chuckles* Yeah, actually, Shard's system has me a little confused. I am trying to keep this as simple as possible because I know that even I would like some freedom to fudge up things and do them 'my way'. That way even if for some reason JKat, Dray, Phe, and Shard all got the same exact code for something, they could all look different. Even with real genetics we don't always get a clear cut color or look for something. Like palominos in the horse world. They're defined by the Cr (if I remember right) gene which can cause the horse to be dark palomino to light palomino. It still makes each of the four templates unique (not just the style of the artist ).

Perhaps, if we combine the genes, we limit how many generations can get squashed together, like three or four. And then ends and either continues on or gets bred out for a certain clutch/generation. Or perhaps certain traits get dropped. Like Bpn'al'tv (perhaps the hyphens would make separating them easier? thought of that at work. ) that gets joined with Bki. If, in my example, pn and al are from the first generation, one of them now fade out and get lost, which tends to happen anyway right. So either personal choice or roll of dice and pn is chosen to get lost. (heehee) Now the code would be Bal'tv'ki. *blinks*

Also, perhaps if I could get a better example of Shard's code, I could understand this better. I really have NO idea what you two are talking about. I can understand better in black-and-white, so to speak. XD

I also think roll-of-dice and or 'whatever I think looks best' would come into play a lot. But, i know their are certain things I like/want to see bred out from my species. The Tavrayn wings, for example. If people at least KNOW what they are most dominate for, even if they don't use a code, then the basic reason for the code is done.

I do think the color needs to be expanded a bit I just don't know where you would want it expanded. I think the most complex thing may end up being the 'details'.

I also changed the name...Nexus Generic Breeding Code. To avoid confusion.

*camps out in Chat room for a while*

[Yakima]

heehee...and it dies. *pokes it*

Would anyone mind if I [try to] run a Generations project to test this? I may just cheat and use the FGPC template (or if Segarra is so kind, a new one...) to alter around like I did for the OEM. I really don't have the juice for a new one each time but we'll see.

If I do, I'll only want purebreds to start out with unless one can figure out the code for a hybrid. Perhaps we can hash out the flaws that way better then this.

*shrugs*

[Dray]

Why would we mind? XD Go for it!

[JKatkina]

XD Go for it! It'd be rad!

[Dray]

The only critters that I have that are purebreeds are Merideti... but they're not very much like most Nexus dragons. o.o I could make up a couple of species that are just codes if you'd like to play around, though!

[Starburst]

My only purebreed species are Asana dragons and if you'd like to play with them, you have my blessing

[Yakima]

Okay, well, then. I might as well try it, eh. *has a sketch started at least*

Lets see how long Segs keeps this one up. heh Let me figure out a form and get a drawing in place. I'm going to have this run out of the Last Oddessy since I really have that in a sort of limbo for timelines.

[Dray]

Manipulating a single base seems like the easiest way to go about this one; you can do a single shading layer and then manipulate that to fit the new alterations, if need be!

Or, alternately, you could do a sketch like Airy does and not shade it! Sometimes that is faster and it can look good, too. :)

[Yakima]

I'll probably try the single base. It worked well for the OEM and I kinda liked doing it that way.

[JKatkina]

It did end up pretty good!

Anyways, back on topic, I was working on messing about with an asandus-code for this thing. I admit I deviated a little from your system of organization, Yakima, playing with categories I thought were important. Here's the final result:

ASKAN (av for askan avengaean -- other asandae would follow this pattern, aka pv, mv, nv etc)

Main:
Body: Bav/bav
Wing type: Wav/wav
Head: Hav/Hav
Tail: Tav/Tav
Legs: Lav/lav

Detailing:
Ventral: vav/vav
Dorsal: Dav/dav
Eyes: eav/eav
Body Detail: Yav/yav
Head Detail: aav/aav
Wing Detail: Gav/Gav
Tail Detail: Iav/iav
Leg Detail: Fav/Fav

Coloration:
Pattern: Pav/pav
Colors: Cav/Cav

What do you figure? Anything you feel is important that I've left out? We could of course go into further detail with this, building off of each category indefinitely... if people were interested in srs inheritance bsns. XD I think the Colors category should be expanded somewhat and maybe even elements of actual genetics brought in for that one, but for the moment, this is a framework.

[Yakima]

No, that's fine. Though I have added 'legs' to my code, too, since their is a variety of length and shapes on them, not to mention bipedrals.

I have an idea for the color part, too. I'll try to play with that at work during my break or something. Though I'm not sure how you wanted to incoporate real genetics but I think I have an idea.

I'm assuming you want all different letters for everything? XD

I should also get codes for my species done. urg. lol

[JKatkina]

Legs, it's not a bad idea! :D I edited "legs" categories into my last post there.

Different letters for all the different categories, yeah, I think that'd be the best idea. Then we can shorthand the code when we want or need to without suffering confusion as to which piece of the dragon is being referred to.

Different letter combos for all my asandae, yes to that as well, if that's what you were referring to. XD The dominances will be different enough that it'll matter, and it'll let me try out the code when it comes to crossbreeds! :D

I just had a thought -- maybe adding another tier of dominance would be possible here without introducing new symbols into the code. I mean, we're using capital letters to express dominant/recessive. Maybe capitalizing the species code could indicate another level of dominance. Like, BAV would be exclusively dominant, Bav would be dominant/co-dominant, bav would be recessive/blending.

Like maybe in the case of a, head detailing:
AAVAtv would be only Askan head detailing with no Tavaryn features -- the Askan head horn only.
AavAtv would be a mix-and-match of Aven and Tavaryn features, but not a blending. Tavaryn horns and nose plates, as well as Askan skullcap, would express.
aavAtv would be only Tavaryn head detailing and no Askan. Horns, nose plates, but no head plates.
aavatv would be a smooth blend of Askan and Tavaryn, say a merging of the Tavaryn horns into a two-pronged head plate, or two long flat head plates on either side of the head.

AAVATV might have to be something different. Dray and I had thrown the idea around that maybe (in something of an homage to real hybridization) certain genetic codes would indicate nonviable offspring that would abort before born, or end up being dud eggs. This could be a good context for that to happen, because it would limit the amount of extreme-dominants people would put in their genetic code -- the more extreme-dominants present in the code, the fewer viable offspring your dragons will have!

[Shard]

I just wish I had something other than my huge load of mutts. I actually only have Zekiran dragons as my 'original species', and they're already kind of involved as it is.

[Yakima]

Well, Shard, you can always try to assign your mutts a code based on their appearance. You would also have your Paniyan dragons to account for. All the Alskryian dragons had different looks that I don't lump them together. I'm going to make a code specifically for my Setian strain of Alskyrian dragons. But I don't mind using a hybrid if a code can be figured out. *shrugs*

--

Actually, I like that idea, the capital letter thing; and to the dud eggs as their should be duds in a lot of clutches. I know I have codes that render a dud egg for my Anarian species, kinda like the equine 'fatal white' gene.

*nods*

Oh, and don't forget abilities and/or magic and size. I know size for sure tends to be a big question of mine. lol I don't know how you want to handle that. I was thinking not using the species code (tv, ki, ext) but instead using something like s for small, ms for medium small, ect but then what to do with the species that fall into a small to medium size range? hmmm


What if we try, for colors, something like Dray and Shard were talking about. I'm just afraid all the extra notations are gonna get confusing. lol

Also, perhaps this, once figured out, could be posted on the Nexus site for reference.

Also, here is the base I drew up...has some tweaking to do before it's final tho. Should work, I think.

[Starburst]

Looks awesome! I can't wait to see the results!

[Dray]

Sounds neat so far!

I like the idea of having the third level of dominance, there. Though if you're having two highest-level dominants cause a fatality, the more alleles or whatever that you're working with, the more often that's going to happen. So maybe it could be that the highest levels of dominance leading to fatalities only click with the main chunk of selections:

Main:
Body: Bav/bav
Wing type: Wav/wav
Head: Hav/Hav
Tail: Tav/Tav
Legs: Lav/lav

[JKatkina]

That could be a good idea!

The idea of it causing fatalities anywhere in the code, though, was intended to be a measure that prevented people from using a lot of the highest-level dominant traits, preserving that only for the things they REALLY want to stick (like for me, Niteshan gems). Maybe it could be bypassed in things like color patterns, or dealt with another way, or just ignored. I guess it depends on how risky people want to play this. :D