Alternative Wolf Code

[Kitsuneko]

Okay, I think I've got most of it worked out now. For the curious, here's an alternative winged wolf genetic code that I started putting together in biology class the other day. It's based on what I could find out of dog genetics, though I took some things from cat and horse genetics as well. I don't necessarily expect or intend this to replace the one Dray put together, as it's pretty much completely incompatible, but here it is.
This basically just covers the fur color, but that's complicated enough as is. XP
The alleles are mostly copied directly from the dog code, so if they don't make sense, blame science! XD I'm using locus as the set of alleles that can be combined into a single gene.

First up, the B locus:
B/b/bg: This gene determines the most basic color of the wolf, with three possibilities. B is dominant and produces black pigment; recessive to that is b which produces a dark, chocolate brown instead of black. Recessive to both of those is bg, or yellow (gold). In most cases, anything that restricts or affects black pigment has the same effect on b and bg; so:
BB, Bb, Bbg: Black base color
bb, bg: Brown base color
bgbg: Gold base color

Okay, but what about red? That's the E locus:
E/e: In dogs (and most mammals) this gene controls the production of eumelanin, or black pigment (which is why it's called E). E is dominant, and has no visible effect. e is the recessive form, and it blocks eumelanin formation. Long story short, it produces a red pigment only; an ee wolf does not have any black on it.
EE, Ee: no effect
ee: Red, overrides B, no black is possible.

D locus, the dilute gene:
D/d: This dilutes the base color and turns it into a paler shade. In dogs, D is completely dominant to d, however, in order to produce a wider range of colors, I decided to make it codominate. (Horses have a similar dilution gene.) One copy of the d allele dilutes it one shade, while two copies of d is doubly diluted.
DD: no visible effect.
Dd: dilute, Black to grey; Chocolate to mid-brown; Gold to cream; Red to copper
dd: double dilute, Black to silver; Chocolate to tan; Gold to amber or white-gold; Red to rose

A locus, the Agouti or "Common Grey" gene:
A/ay/aw/ap/as/at/a: A has no effect and produces a solid wolf. It is dominant to all the other, though it is likely relatively rare compared to ay/aw. There are two forms of common grey, one which allows a combination of red and black tones, the other just black tones.
ay is called red sable in dogs; it allows a combination of red and black pigments forming a common grey pattern, going in general darker on top to paler on bottom in the familiar wolf pattern. The other is aw, or grey sable, and it's basically the same as ay except it doesn't allow the red to show. ay is dominant to aw, and they're both dominant to the other three alleles:
ap is the prism pattern, it turns the common grey pattern into a solid base color with large patches of red, gold, brown, and/or black as the genotype allows. as is spots; a solid white base with spots of whatever the wolf's color would other wise be; at is stripes; a series of darker stripes over the wolf's base color. ap, as, and at are all codominate; if two of them are paired together, they will appear on the coat simultaneously.
And way at the bottom, recessive to everything else, is a, or recessive black. Regardless of all other genes but the solid white alleles, aa produces a solid black wolf.
A_: Solid wolf
ayay: "red sable" base color with lighter paws and belly and darker back, neck and shoulder markings with patches of red.
awaw: "grey sable" same as above without red.
ap: Prism
as: Dalmation spots
at: Stripes
aa: Solid Black

C locus, albinos and whites:
C/ch/cd/ca/c: C is dominant, no visible effect; ch is what's called "chinchilla", red coloring is turned to silver with little or no effect on black. An ayay or ee wolf would thus become a silver. cd produces a solid white wolf with dark eyes; ca white with blue eyes; c is a pure albino wolf. Each allele is recessive to the ones before it and dominant to the ones after it.
C_: no effect
ch: red turned to silver
cd: dark-eyed white
ca: blue-eyed white
c: pink-eyed white (albino)

R locus, roaning:
R/ra/r: R is dominant, produces roaning. White or grey hairs are evenly dispersed throughout the rest of the coat, usually results in a sort of ashy appearance; ra is recessive to R but dominant to r, instead of grey/white, the roan color is replaced by one of the other colors in the genotype (I'm not sure how to decide which color) rr shows no roaning.
R: white/grey roan
ra: other color roan
r: no roaning

Cats have a dominant white gene as well, which would be W/w, though I haven't seen anything in the dog genetics I've looked at.

Elruvian wolves, I would guess, have a separate color gene attached to the gene that determines their magic type that masks the other colors wholly or partially.
If certain colors are more common in one breed than another, then you'd just have to adjust the ratio of how common that allele is in the relevant population. I haven't determined the genes for wing color or magic abilities. The interactions between these genes could produce a wide variety of colors, but here are a few interesting examples:

BB EE DD awaw CC rr: This would produce a black wolf with faint common grey markings like Yakima described a while back.

Bb EE Dd ayay CC rr: A typical red-toned common grey; ex. Moirigh ShadowEmber

Bb ee DD awaw Cch rr: Even though the awaw says there shouldn't be red, the ee overrides that; this would be "rust", like Athore.

Bb ee Dd ayay chch rr: Chinchilla turns this red wolf into a silver; Amiat Sirhaan, Athore's son, would be this.

BB EE dd awaw Ccd rr: While Eshin may be classified as a white, his subtle markings would probably make him a very pale silver under this system. (cdcd would make him a true white, even though he technically doesn't have dark eyes; it's any color not blue or pink.)

BB Ee DD Aay cdcd Rr: Ignoring the fact that Ziran is Elruvian, an otherwise very dark wolf turns out white (and I'll assume he has dark eyes, even though the image doesn't show it).

[Yakima]

Oh, interesting. I remember trying to put together my first wolf-code with the few dog genetics I could find on the internet - i gave up. Unless it's explained to me, I usually can't figure it out. (hence why Dray had to go into such detail....lol). But, I like...

The only part i can't figure out is how, if it's practical, each of the different breeds would work, being that some colors are more common then others and whatnot. o.O Other then that I love it...

And, your server is obviously have a maintenance session...none of the links work (yet...)

[Kitsuneko]

-_- bleh, it's been doing that lately.
Color ratios between breeds would be maintained by controlling how common a particular allele is in that population. i.e. ay/aw (assuming red sable and grey sable are more or less equally common, aw would be a bit more common to offset ay's dominance) are a good deal more common than A, even though they're recessive; cd is quite common in the Alskyrian, Pernese, and Reririan populations, somewhat rare in Eastern Canese and virtually non-existant in Western Canese. and so on. I figure most wolves are Dd with DD being slightly more common than dd, etc. It's probably not perfect, but I don't think I can do exact ratios of each population.

[Guest]

I find horse base-colour genetics a good place to start, with them they have the "Agouti" gene "A"... and the "Extension" gene "E"

A = restricts black to the points. (Mane, tail, lower legs, etc)
a = no affect, black can be all over.

E = Creates black pigment
e = doesnt create black pigment, so the horses doesn't have black markings.

Combining these two gives 9 colour options:

• AAEE - Bay (has at least one A, and one E)
  AAEe - Bay
  AAee - Chestnut (there is no E to make black)
  AaEE - Bay
  AaEe - Bay
  Aaee - Chestnut
  aaEE - Black (there is no A to restrict the black anywhere)
  aaEe - Black
  aaee - Liver Chestnut (there is no E to produce black, and no A to restrict it).

edit: THIS is a Bay horse, for those non-equiney people. Brown body, with dark points... THIS is a chestnut...

[Kitsuneko]

Yeah, the only problem is that the Agouti gene in horses has a very different effect than the Agouti in cats and dogs; Horses=Bay, Dog=sable, cat=tabby. Same gene, different effect. They do have some genes with really interesting effects, though.

[Guest]

Yeah, I know that.

I was more thinking of it as, like, a good way of deciding base colour. Even if it wasn't called Agouti (to reduce confusion).

It gives you a few options... and if you were to make say E / e co dominant, instead, that would give you even more (ie. EE = black; Ee = darkbrown/faded black/whatever; ee = no black).



-rambling-

It's best just to not get me started when it comes to genetics

[Kitsuneko]

Well, I think I've got all the basic colors covered already with the B alleles. That and I'm trying to keep it close to actual wolf coloring when possible (aside from Yakima's exceptions ).

[Dray]

I like how this works. :D It seems more reasonable than the one that I made -- I tried a generator for my own code and it was making some really weird looking wolves; if this one tests nicely than it might be worthwhile to use it instead! (Save for the really weird pairings, anyways. XD)

For the wing, maybe look up pigeon genes? I know that the wolves don't have pigeon wings, however I think that pigeons probably have the most documented genes out of non-livestock birds... otherwise, chickens or geese would probably be next. I would assume that you could also spread the dog genes to cover the wings, including some kind of caveat that this produces 'checkering' or 'barring' or 'even spread of colour' or 'tips' or something.

[Yakima]

I guess we'll have to run tests for both. I've only tested one litter set with Dray's code and the result was what I would expect, actually. I think I'm just going to wait and see which one works overall. Maybe for the Alskyrian/Pernese wovles that would work very well, being there geneticaly-created background, but for the others, I don't know. And the new one, Zarish, has blue and violet in there code codes...which would really throw in a lope....(Zarish is/was the unnamed species for five of my new cannon wolves...Mahi, Khays, Aya, Enas, and Misaar).

XD

EDIT: Dray, I have been tweaking the charts you gave me, too. *shrugs* I honestly like yours because it explains colors like rust fire very, very well. But that's my two cents, too.

[Kitsuneko]

Okay, how's this?
Examples of what the wing patterns look like on pigeons: http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/pattern.html

W locus: Wing pattern. In most of these patterns, the arm part of the wings will share the same color pattern that is on the wolf's back and legs, while the wing pattern is most obvious on the primary and secondary feathers.
W/wd/wb/w: W is dominant, it produces self-colored feathers (the same as the genotype for fur color) with small, pale-colored tips that give the wings a lightly speckled look. wd produces a checker pattern, which looks sort of like random spots on mostly-white wings. wb produces wings with prominent, dark bars on the upper wing feathers, with the primary and secondary feathers having self-colored bars that are slightly more subtle. Despite being recessive, this is probably the most common allele in the population, as it seems to be what most birds of prey have. wt restricts the self-color to the very tips of the primary and secondary feathers. Recessive to all others is w, barless feathers, and basically, the wings are one completely solid color.
W: T-pattern
wd: checker
wb: barred
wt: tips
w: barless (solid)

O locus: Eyes
Probably the one with the most alleles. In real life, eye color is actually determined by several different genes, but I can barely find any information on how it actually works, even for humans. >.< Each color is dominant to the ones after it and recessive to the ones before it.
O: Yellow
or: Orange
ow: Brown
og: Grey
on: Green
ol: Blue
od: Red
bk: Black
ov: Violet

Honestly, I don't think I'm going to do magic; your guess is as good as mine, and from what I can tell, what you have seems to work fine.
I'll probably tackle the Elruvians next.

[Dray]

I like this, too! It would be interesting to introduce some sex-linked genes, maybe even in wing-colours like those pigeons reduced and rubella modifiers, for example. XD

For the patterns, is the pattern a 'darkening' or a 'lightening' or a different colour altogether?

[Kitsuneko]

I considered sex-linked genes, but when I looked at the genetics involved, I decided it was too complicated. >.<
I think the patterns would alternate lighter, darker and normal, according to the fur color, sort of like what you have with these wolves.

[Yakima]

Okay, so my question is what code are we all planning on using? I think it would get too complicated having two different ones and I see nothing wrong with Drays. I don't want to throw out Kit's work, it's wonderful but I'm not sure if I can follow it easy enough to test it out. The one I keep modifying seems to work well enough (though I would love a way to get a solid wolf out of two common gray (GG) parents >.<)

I've stopped making codes for my wolves until I know what everyone else wants to do. There is no point for me to keep making codes out of a code that may get scrapped somewhat. I just like how the other one can rule out colors when you breed an Alskyrian and an Elruvian. I understand this is more realistic...but if I never brought in the "magical" types, it would be perfect. Blue and violet aren't colors that your code will accomidate easily, I don't think which is why I'm not latching on easily, I guess.

Yeah, I'm very confused. I'm not seeing this one working the way I wanted when I though about making a code for the wolves. It's too realisitc, I think, and they're far from realisitc. *shrugs*

[Shard]

For my part, I'm not going by codes. I go purely by what looks good and what seems logical to appear from pairings. I've already got my ferilons with their codes, and since they're completely made up it's not like I'm trying to compare to real-world anything with those. I personally don't want to be screwing your codes up, with my eyeballing art, but I also don't want to constrain myself to the codes when there's a pair I think will look good.

[Dray]

I'm probably going to try both for different litters as they come, or just do 'em by eye. It's no big deal which one to use, and it's not like you're saying that we have to use one or the other, are you?

Mix and match and have fun! This is about hobbies, which means that once it becomes confusing or too much work, or too restraining, it's not fun anymore!

[Yakima]

*shrugs* I just like consistency, I guess.

[Kitsuneko]

*shrugs* Like I said, I never really expected this one to replace Dray's, and while I might like to use it for a litter or two with Pernese/Alskyrians, I don't really expect to use it with every single wolf. I'll be fine with anything you decide to go with.

[delyar]

I have to say I'm with Shard. Despite my genetics background and how fun/cool this is in theory, I'm still going to make what looks pretty and say screw the code. :P For all species. It's still a neat thought, but kind of a fun sucker.

[Guest]

I have to say I'm with Shard. Despite my genetics background and how fun/cool this is in theory, I'm still going to make what looks pretty and say screw the code. For all species. It's still a neat thought, but kind of a fun sucker.

I admit, I am thirding this train of thought. I love genetics, but it is restricting. When I have wolves ( and probably dragons ) I will be producing colours I like from a pairing.

[Guest]

I have to say I'm with Shard. Despite my genetics background and how fun/cool this is in theory, I'm still going to make what looks pretty and say screw the code. For all species. It's still a neat thought, but kind of a fun sucker.

I admit, I am thirding this train of thought. I love genetics, but it is restricting. When I have wolves ( and probably dragons ) I will be producing colours I like from a pairing.

[JKatkina]

Well, if no one in the wolf world wants to use it... XD Hey Kit, do you mind if I use your lovely code (or a slightly modified version) at some point for some other creatures? I'm lovin' the genetics here, and it just seems like too good a thing to go to waste!

[Dray]

The reason that I like making up codes is, partially, thinking more about what's going to happen with clutches or litters. XD I love making generators and seeing what carries on for generations and what quickly breeds out! (I did that for the last... 15 clutches at the BWR? It's fun to lose some control of the decision making in lieu of random chance!)

Genetic codes can be restricting, but I do like having that guidance there. XD There's always the urge to make the shiniest creature possible but after you do enough of those, it's nice to have a self-admitted restraining order to keep the rares rare.

[StarFyre]

I personally tend to play with genetic theories - thought exercises, so to speak. Scientist that I am, I love the ability to scribble out an entire code set, put it in motion, and watch the results. For example -- anyone remember the little flit-things I did a while back, the Padiren? I have an entire genetic code created for everything from determining what color appears on the coat to how dark/light or dull/shiny that coat is.

It's there for anyone to look at (or, was -.-;; I forget where it is now, if it is even still up online anywhere), but I don't expect to use it. What it DOES is tell me "If I have a flit with X coloration, and a flit with Y coloration, I'm more likely to see Z out of these than I am to see A -- thus, A will be "rare" here, and Z will not."

Or, with the Myrsilk. There is a chance - a minor one, but a chance - that ANY random Elemental Myrsilk pairing will produce a Season... UNLESS one of the two dragons is explicity said to NOT carry for such. Season x Season can only produce Seasons, of course. (That chance is precisely 1/4, if you want to be science-y about it, but pfft. Some clutches will produce none, some will produce many. Laws of probability can go eff themselves.) Or in the clutch generator I have for Myrsilk clutches -- rather "plain" colorations the likes of which Okairel and Yanless have will often carry on to their children to create "plain" offspring. If neither parent has boot-markings, it's unlikely any child with have boot-markings. Simple eyeballing things like that, put into code (and this time I mean program-code) form.

So, I usually see the codes as more "A set of probabilities through which I can theorize what will be more common out of a pairing and what will be less common."

I love playing, I love thinking (and I'm just as guilty of creating genetic codes out of the blue as probably anyone here -- anyone remember me trying to rationalize the way those water dragons worked?), but at the end of the day, I will usually go with what my mind says is pretty within the bounds of probability.

[Kitsuneko]

JKat: Use all you want.

[Yakima]

I'm kind of with Dray. Rare should be rare. That's why I love the Pern one. Wolves' colors may not be very rare (depending on the breed), but I grew tired of the on the whim thing. You get what you get and you work with it. *shrugs*

I need to stop taking naps...or something...>.< Don't know if I feel better or worse...

[Shard]

I still roll some dice when I'm pairing mine, to see who they take after more, or whether they're a mix of features.

[Yakima]

ooooo...I forgot about this. (goes to make tests of this code and see what one she likes better now*

If we ever get around to making badges/metals whatever, I want a Genetic Fiend Badge! Or something along those lines!

*goes back to looking for the thread she was originally searching for...if anyone finds the Nexus Dragon Code one where some of us were talking about creating a nexus code, please let me know...*pouts**

EDIT: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YLv ... 5Xk4A/edit

[Kitsuneko]

Looking good so far! I decided I don't exactly like how the double dilute works, but I can't think of any better way to do it, so as far as I'm concerned, it stays unless someone comes up with something better. XP I also noticed a slight mistake I made in the original post: thinking logically, recessive black (aa) would still be recessive to an ee gene, not just albino alleles. So a wolf with aa could theoretically be white (with two albino alleles), red (with ee) or black (anything else).

I also like the additions you added; I can't think why I didn't put white-spotting in there to begin with. I'm gonna make a suggestion for the magic/colors off the tope of my head and hope it makes sense. I haven't read anything about the winged wolves' background information since before the sites went down, so fair warning:

In order to have wolves with high magic associated with unnatural colors, have them linked to the magic allele as a pair, the way Wd and wD are linked to Xg/XG in the dragon code and always paired that way.
Magic (M for high magic, m for none, U for unnatural coloring, u for normal coloring): MU are always paired, barring mutations, as are mu
MUMU: High magical power, Unnatural coloring (Blue, green, yellow, violet, maybe bright red?)
MUmu: Medium magical power, Unnatural coloring or perhaps codominant
mumu: Little or no magic, natural coloring
Stuff like Mumu or mUmU coud occur and provide exceptions to the rules, but they would have to stem from a random mutation in the allele and thus would be very rare.

I don't remember if the types of magic determine which color the wolf is. (Like, are fire mages always red, water mages always blue, and so on, or is the actual color unrelated?) If magic type doesn't determine color, you'd need at least one more locus to decide which unnatural color shows, which would presumably require at least one MU to affect the wolf.

[Yakima]

I like that, but will probably substitute U for T (for telepathic which are the 'powers' the non-magical types have and allow them as MTMT for sake of allowing wolves to posess telepathic powers and magical ones, just not strong on both sides. And yes, I planned to have the M-gene mess with colors, making them brighter and altering them.

Typiacally, yes, the power of the wolf determined the color but only in Zarish and Elruvian. Canese and Reririan still lean toward more natural colorations, and the only Canese type that ignores most all else are the Demonic wolves (Which would have -d connnected to M but ONLY for demonic wolves which would turn their wings bat/dragon like).

For Elruvian, this is what is was set at for color restrictions. While some/most are available in the natural colors, the Kindreds would only have these colors available. and would probably have a higher intensity to the hue of their color than the other breeds.
The only colors I have not figured out are the green, yellow, and blue/blue-green shades.

I also think the original Roaning idea might help, too, with some tweaking:

Roaning (R/r gene)
A roan is an mixture of the wolf's first pair of genes; the second pair is ignored. This can be either a solid roaning where both colors are mixed evenly to create a new color, or can have a darker topline of the secondary color while it fades near the tip of the tail, muzzle, chest, belly, and legs.

RR - not a roan, no resessives are held
Rr - not a roan, resessive is held
r* - double roaned, uses the second colors of each set rather then the second color of the first set only; the second color is lighter then the first and may only show up on the topline
rr - roan shows through

Below are the possible combinations for roans.
light gray or dark grey - white/black, white/gray or black/white, black/gray
rose gray - gray/red
slate rose or silver rose - silver/red
pale rose - red/white, white/red
chocolate or dark brown- brown/black
antique gold - gray/gold, black/gold
antique silver - gray/silver, black/silver
tope - brown/tan, brown/white, black/tan
russet or rust brown - brown/red, red/brown
dark red - red/black, black/red
amber - tan/gold, tan/red, red/cream, tan/silver
pale gold - white/gold, gold/white
pale silver - white/silver, silver/white

I orignally had roaning working based off the base colors but I'm sure we can find a way around it. I know gold appears naturally in dogs (golden retriever), so we shouldn't have to make a special gene for it.

[Yakima]

http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/

This is the page I was using for reference. I almost did a complete rewrite of the code but while it's a good page for reference...it really didn't explain everything or what the genes were or how they were written all the time. Looking for a second reference.