Live Versus Dead, Humane Or Natural

[Carodos]

Since, despite the fact that the Phorum is supposed to be free for all, the debating no matter how civil was kinda forbidden, I had to bring it here to say something. Because damned if this isn't something that both sides deserve being heard on, not just one.

The question of the day is on feeding live prey to predators kept as pets. Most people are for it, some are against it. Personally I find it rather deplorable. Even if I wasn't as squeemish as I was I'd be against the thing, as it does seem overly cruel despite the 'breeding' of the prey.

There is this little place in my area devoted to the conservation of the natural flora and fauna of our area of Ohio. My area is home to one of the largest metro parks in the country, and the forested land is very well preserved. In this little place there are lots of displays. You can feel snake skins, look at stuffed animals (which creep me out but isn't the point) and see live predators from the area. We've got owls and snakes and lizards and frogs. And you know what? Not a single one of those is fed live prey. While it is natural for the predators to hunt, these aren't true predators. They won't be released into the wild because they have been bred and raised in captivity, like most serpents kept at home. They know only a little about hunting, and putting live food in a cage hardly qualifies.

While some will suggest that their pets won't eat anything but live, an animal can be trained to do so. You see by taking an animal and bringing it into your home, giving it free roam of the house or putting it in a tank or cage, does not make it wild. Yes, they are not wholely domestic, but they are not wholely wild either. Look at dogs. They are descendants from wild wolves and ancient hounds, and very few of them hunt for red meat to this day. Wolves do of course, but have you ever seen trained wolves being fed live rabbits? No, they are given steak or kibble like domestic dogs. Cats as well, sure they hunt a bit, but given a choice between kitty food and wild food, watch them go for cat food.

Honestly, there was this one large tomcat we took in one Christmas and we became his family (you don't own the cat, the cat owns you). He was the sweetest thing once you got over his territorial nature. He used to live on the streets and such, so we have no clue what he ate before. But you know what? When we took him in, he never once ate what he killed. Instead he brought them to the porch as gifts to my mother, and all were very neat kills. In fact, he once caught a bat that had gotten into the house, but never once did he eat what he caught. He was domestic in some part and would not eat something he had killed. He was the modern mouser.

Think of it this way, where your dog to attack another dog, or someone's cat or a squirrel and kill it, what would you do? What would the dog do? would it tear in and start eatting? Would you even let it? And wouldn't you as the owner be held responsible for your pet attacking another living thing? What if that dog attacked multiple people or animals? I'll tell you, the dog would be put to sleep.

So why, when canines and felines were predators domesticated, should we hold a double standard towards snakes and reptiles? The snake or reptile was raised in captivity, as were, most likely, their parents before it. They have never existed out in the real wild, and never had to really hunt. The prey animals haven't had a chance either. They haven't lived in the wild, they haven't received the chance to flee or even learn how to possibly survive an encounter with a predator. These animals are outside of the food chain really, because they don't return to the earth and your snake/reptile isn't being hunted by something bigger now is it?

Yes, I know you're going to say that it is natural for them to hunt, but isn't it natural for the prey to get a chance to run? Because they don't have that chance. Everything, no matter how inbred, has a flight or fight reaction, and everything has some instinct. Maybe they aren't completely aware, but they do know when there is no hope, and they do know fear and pain. What if you were in the place of that mouse? What if you were being hunted by a large snake? (Yes, I know there are VERY few chances of that, but just think about it for a moment.) Put yourself in a glass tank with a creature many times your size coming to eat you. Eat you alive at that. It isn't very nice to imagine now is it?

As a pet owner you become responsible for the actions of not only yourself, but of that pet. And you know as a person, that animals learn from a young age. Instinct is nothing compared to conditioning. Dogs are trained to help hunters from an early age, and trained to eat dry food from an even earlier one. If trained from a young age an animal will come to eat what is put before them, be it living or dead. It doesn't matter how old it is, training can start at any time. If an animal is hungry, even a hunter, it will take what it can get. If a bear in the wild is hungry it will eat leaves and berries or carron if there is no other choice. That is their way, that is the way of any animal. If a wolf is starving it will eat the remains of another kill. They are not scavengers by nature, but by need.

And if you won't listen to me or take my opinions seriously, then listen to professionals. Vets and zookeepers world wide will tell you the dangers of live prey, whether in a caged environment or even in the wild. They even have advice on handling snakes that prefer some wiggle to their meal. They say it is VERY rare to find but the animals can be, with time, trained to accept prekill. If you don't care for the humane treatment of the prey animal, at least consider the injury that can be brought upon your snake or reptile through the use of live prey. A majority of websites specializing on snakes or reptiles warn against live prey. So at least think about your animal if you don't think it's inhumane to treat even prey animals like that.

Feeding Prekilled vs. Live Prey: Myths On Live Prey (A guide to feeding and how to get reluctant snakes to accept prekill.)
Live Prey vs. Prekill (Excerpted from The Snake: An Owner's Guide To A Happy Healthy Pet. ©1997 Howell Book House, Lenny Flank. A Man who lost a snake to live prey.)
Reptile veterinarians and zoo reptile curators on feeding live rodent prey (Professional Zoo keepers and vets on live versus prekill. Includes Images of damage done to snakes through feeding live prey)

[Shard]

While I understand the theory, I disagree since I do feed live prey and prefer it in all ways to prekilled prey to my boa.

My boa was once injured by a large rat, too big for her really, but it was all I could get. She had her eye scratched and was unable to properly judge distance for a while, so the two times I had to feed her during her recovery period I had to stun her rat prey. I see nothing at all 'humane' about stunning prey when it's going to be eaten anyway, it to me was needlessly cruel - brains broken and still trembling from nerve damage.

It is true that our impression of animals taking down their prey is 'inhumane' - but that is purely because we're trying to ascribe human traits to a non-human creature. Of course it's not humane, we don't strangle our prey and consume it whole and raw. But they don't care, they're hungry. It's the nature of the whole predator/prey thing.

Rabbits and rats are *prey*. In many places they are simply pests to be dealt with in whatever way necessary. I get that cats and dogs are able to be trained into eating things that they wouldn't normally, like corn meal and lobster kibbles. They're opportunists who will eat anything because in their hindbrain they're still on the prowl tring to find their next meal in the jungle. My indoor-outdoor cat Alby is a perfect example: he loves hunting things (and presumably eating them when we're not the recipients of his 'gifts') but he will eat anything and everything put in front of him and has become quite fat because his mind won't realize that he can rely upon us for his meals. But he will still hunt and pursue prey.

The fact is we can take an animal and pretend like they're tamed. But they're not - especially reptiles, they simply don't understand because they're incapable of it. I won't bother feeding an animal that would be better off getting exersize and utilizing their natural instincts as much as they can given that they're sitting in a glass cage in my house.

As much as many people feel responsible to be 'humane' to the prey animals, I feel responsible to feed live prey to simply allow their lives (however short) to be somewhat natural. I don't find it cruel in the slightest to feed a rabbit to the snake - the rabbit is prey, plain and simple. they're pretty things. But to me they're food if not for me but for whatever predator is up for catching them.

I don't think its anything worth coming to blows over in here, there *are* two views on this issue, certainly. I respect the ideas, I just don't agree with em.

[Rachael]

Likewise; I understand, if I do not agree.

Of course, I don't own reptiles, though my father did and was a live-feeder (and breeder) back in the day, along with my uncles and aunts. So my focus will be more on felines and canines, as they are most familiar to me.

With my cats, I've had all sorts. The ones who adore bringing gifts, the ones who can't hunt, and the ones who bring gifts because they want to share the bounty of what they're eating. All my hunter cats have always chosen to eat their kills (great fun, finding the remains floofed about in the garage or around the house) and share with us as well.

Not to even touch on my dog. Chai has been an active hunter since six months of age. I did nothing to train her (wouldn't care to) and she's been scenting out mice about as big as your thumb - the last knucle forth - and has successfully caught, killed, and eaten them. Though I (and we) try to prevent the eating, since her digestive system can't always handle this.

She hunts anything smaller than her she can, but has a clear deliniation between what is "prey" and what is "off limits." Other dogs, cats, or creatures in cages which humans tend to, she stays away from. She's actively interested in them, and wil chase felines, but without the intent to kill.

She's tame. She's also a natural hunter. She's also a bit of a butt-head, as she likes to hog all food, but she doesn't stop hunting just because we more than adequately feed her. Chai has an honest love for it, and likes to eat what she catches, but much like the cat also likes to share. K.C., our other dog, would hunt as well, but she's inept. It's why we joke that Chai is part wolf, considering on the property where she lives with my dad she's effectively decimated the gopher population. Single-pawedly, to boot.

Arguably, the point for that would be she has no idea of balance, since she is always fed; but what I feel is that to tie back to live-prey - drawing distinctions on who killed it when is craving differentiation. We anthropomporphize everything by living and having thoughts; assigning our insights to an animal in a predator-prey relationship doesn't seem entirely valid to me. Not even to argue the idea of "nature" versus "nurture." Hunting is the nature of a creature - hell, my housemate has a tree frog which won't eat anything that doesn't move, though of course people aren't good at anthropomorphizing crickets and mealworms - and yes, if trained, a creature will go with what is more familiar. I don't find one more moral than the other; both are acceptable.

Unless you own a basilisk and feed humans to it, in which case, you're sort of a prick.

I mostly rambled on, so forgive the lack of direction.

[Astra]

I had a cat a few years ago who was a hunter by his nature. We called him Woe Kitten because he resembled the Woe Kitten from Tales of the Blode (http://www.rathergood.com/blode2/). It was his sole purpose in life to spread destruction and mayhem wherever he went. We tried everything to tame him, to get him to calm down, to get him to stop breaking stuff, but nothing worked. The animal shelter made us promise to keep him indoors but after we had to resort to clever trickery to get out the front door without him escaping, and he then used his excess energy to destroy anything that got in his way (couches and pants are always a good target), my mom decided to let him out. He quickly killed a couple of rodents and a bird, and that was the end of that. We ended up giving him away so that he might become a barn cat, which was really what he should have been to begin with. Moral of the story -- some animals are going to be insane and kill rodents no matter what you do, like it or not.

[Xalia]

Honestly, there was this one large tomcat we took in one Christmas and we became his family (you don't own the cat, the cat owns you). He was the sweetest thing once you got over his territorial nature. He used to live on the streets and such, so we have no clue what he ate before. But you know what? When we took him in, he never once ate what he killed. Instead he brought them to the porch as gifts to my mother, and all were very neat kills. In fact, he once caught a bat that had gotten into the house, but never once did he eat what he caught. He was domestic in some part and would not eat something he had killed. He was the modern mouser.

I hate to break it to you, but chances are, he didn't eat it because he was full, not because he felt no need to eat it. Cats that accept a pride mentality with their humans don't think of themselves as being ruled in general like a dog will. Cats that bring 'presents' for their people are leaving them there as food for you. They go out and hunt to /feed/ you, not because they just plain want to kill something. The hunt does serve a purpose in their lives but having been around barn cats a /lot/ over the years I've been able to study their behavior. In general, our number one mouser doesn't hunt right after he's been fed his kitty food. In fact, he usually spends several hours /sleeping/ while he digests. If he wants to hunt first thing in the morning he refuses his breakfast and leaves it for the other cats to finish. He then goes out and does his job, catching and /eating/ every mouse in the area. And if he eats his breakfast then we know he's not going to be hunting. He's a barn cat so he feels no need to leave his catches for anyone (in truth there are so many different people who take care of him throughout the week there's no way for him to /claim/ any of us as his charge... XD ) so he eats /every/ /single/ /thing/ he kills.

And Shard makes an excellent point. Snakes, unlike dogs who have pack mentality and accept us as their alphas (if we train them right of course), do not understand the concept of captivity or being 'pets'. Just recently there was a man in this area who was killed by his 13 foot python because he let the snake wrap itself around his neck and couldn't dislodge it. By the time he called 911 it was too late. For this reason alone I feel that snakes /need/ an outlet for their hunting instinct. Not offering them the chance to hunt doesn't mean that instinct goes away, it just means you're suppressing it and sooner or later the snake will find a way to do what it's designed to do. By providing live prey you offer the snake the opportunity to use its instinct in a relatively safe outlet, so long as you provide prey appropriate to the size of the snake.

[Shard]

That's a good example, Xalia. My snake is almost entirely docile most of the time, you can pick her up, even just pet her and make motions in front of her. Once she smells an animal on the other hand, and she's hungry, that is the only time she's going to be aggressive. Knowledge about the animal and their personality is just as important, I feel, as any information about how to be 'humane'. When it comes down to it, I have a predator in my home that could concievably kill me. It's in my best interest to keep her happy and not do things that would endanger either me OR her. I would never put multiple animals in the cage with her for instance. I also would never put a wild-caught prey animal in there with her. if she's in the wild they take their chances that their prey isn't diseased. But I *do* have control over that. I know that the bred bunnies I feed her are kept in clean, controlled cages (I've seen them myself) and aren't subject to parasites and the like.

But outside of having food put to her, the most my snake 'knows' is that I'm a mobile, warm tree. I'm not 'master', I'm not a superior being - I'm somethign that in a pinch she'd attempt to kill and eat. I respect that, her instincts are as intact as they can be.

And yeah - I'm for the predators. prey animals are pretty. but they're food imho. We domesticated them because they're not out to get us *and* not smart enough to get away.

[Carodos]

To be quite plain and simple, I understand where you are coming from, but I do not believe you are understanding where I, and Shi' before me were coming from. There is more in question here than whether the animal likes to hunt or not after all. There is also the question of the prey. You say they exist only to feed us, but when dealing with a pet that isn't the truth. You're dealing with a stunted food pyramid there. This isn't how it was in the wild. In the wild the rabbits and mice ate things grown by the land and scraps. Then they had a chance of being eaten by something else. A CHANCE. And now, instead, we do this. You've talked about, earlier, how it is 'more humane' to feed the animal alive to the snake than to crush it's head. Those are, first of all, not the only options. And, second of all, you're quite backwards in that mentality.

There are suppliers of frozen prekill, and yes, I know it might seem like a chore to defrost them and an annoyance to store them in your freezers, but it is a proven better source of food. It is also safer because the snake can't be injured. The whole of the snake 'hunting instinct' is to coil around something small enough and slowly tighten their grip as the creature exhales until it is disabled, but not dead. There is no exercise involved in that, especially when the tank is already limiting their movement.

Then, there is the question of how much worse it is to bash the head in first. You do realize that by doing so you are either a) stunning the creature to the point where they will not realize what is going on and will die peacefully, or b) kill them instantly via brain damage and cause there to be absolutely NO pain? Yes, the bodies may twitch afterwards, but they are just muscle spasms. They are not signs of pain or the controlled actions of a living thing.

I've heard many people say how horrible the lives are of the live prey anyway, so it's better if they die. That is hardly a nice way of putting it. They are inbred and many places take such poor care of them that the animals die within two weeks. Inbred or not no animal dies that fast just because. And ill animals could serve to make your own snake ill. I know someone who took in a few prey mice as pets, and they turned out to be sweet and of very good temperament after they were nursed back to health, rivalling the mice actually INTENDED as pets.

Now consider just how the prey gets to die. Alive and being worn away by digestive juices. Digestive juices are powerful acids. I'm sure that I don't have to tell you that acids burn, a lot. The short time that they are alive in the snakes is most likely horribly painful for them, and hardly fair. Yes, you say it is 'natural' but it isn't. The prey is being raised only to be consumed, which isn't the way nature intended it. We are causing the problem, and it isn't because a creature wants to deny their place in the world.

When it comes right down to it, putting live prey in the cage or tank with a snake that WHOLLY intends to eat it and giving it no hope of escape is terrible. It is no better than the Romans of ancient times feeding Christians to the lions, Inuits leaving their elderly on ice floes for polar bears, or taking a prisoner, restraining him or her, and leaving him to the wild animals (and that has happened in the past. Bad way to go).

Maybe it doesn't seem to be much of a problem to us because, as Americans we are desensitized so thoroughly at such a very young age, but the fact is that it isn't right. Buying one animal for the express purpose of feeding it to another is wrong. It is not done at zoos. Most vets would warn you against it. A majority of professionals, scientists and care books would tell you it is dangerous for your pet. And you know what? It's just not fair to that creature you are willingly killing. I am honestly amazed that animal cruelty laws in the US that forbid dog, cock, cat and other sorts of fights for profits, as well as the abuse of animals, allows it at all.

[Shard]

Now consider just how the prey gets to die. Alive and being worn away by digestive juices. Digestive juices are powerful acids. I'm sure that I don't have to tell you that acids burn, a lot. The short time that they are alive in the snakes is most likely horribly painful for them, and hardly fair. Yes, you say it is 'natural' but it isn't. The prey is being raised only to be consumed, which isn't the way nature intended it. We are causing the problem, and it isn't because a creature wants to deny their place in the world.

Here I have to disagree. Prey animals for constrictors are dead by suffocation, a rather quick death in fact - I've watched carmine plenty of times to know how little it takes to snuff out a small mammal. Since most predators have learned to eat their prey head first - the head is the first thing to go in and generally that stops the kicking.

I think, again, that ascribing a very human judgement to the way that animals consume each other is unrealistic. We need to eat, the pets need to eat. The feeder animals are fed grains and whatnot that they would otherwise had to forage for. It is an inevitability that they will die - either way.

Actually that brings me to a weird incident - there's a company here where I live that apparently does pet cremation. They ironically named their company "Circle of Life". While I think it's nice they do this service for people who want to keep ashes or whatever memorabilia, I laughed out loud that they'd choose to name their company something which actively *removes the pet* from the circle of life - by making it unavailable to feed worms, bugs and aid the creation of dirt.

I think the real difference of opinion here may stem from what ethics might be important to us. I don't give pets 'rights' because they're animals and cannot either understand nor act upon human events. However I do believe that we are responsible to a point - but i do believe that point ends at feeding pets. I'd say that hunting caged animals is cruel. I would not however say that feeding my snake captive-bred prey is cruel because the animals in the wild would still be prey.

I also kinda think the arguments we're giving - while extensive and complete, and very respectibly put forth, aren't gonna get anyone to change anyone else's mind.

[Carodos]

A case in South Africa regarding the feeding of live prey to captive predators.

http://www.nspca.co.za/Media-Wildlife-1.htm

MEDIA STATEMENT

ISSUED ON THURSDAY 21 JULY 2005

LIVE PREY – ANOTHER CASE, MORE CHARGES

A live guinea pig was removed from a tank containing a yellow anaconda at the facility of WILDTHINGZ near Polokwane (formerly Pietersburg). Richard Fraenkel of the SPCA Polokwane was actioning a complaint received from the public at WILDTHINGZ when he saw, "The guinea pig backed into the farthest corner of the cage or tank and appeared to be in distress."

The guinea pig was removed and confiscated by the SPCA. This was reported to the SAPA Polokwane and the OB number 1577 obtained for the matter.

An official warning in terms of the Animals Protection Act will be issued to WILDTHINGZ, instructing that the feeding of live prey must cease immediately and that criminal proceedings in terms of the above Act will be brought against WILDTHINGZ.

It is the intention that criminal charges will be laid.

The "feeding of live prey" is a criminal offence in terms of the Animals Protection Act No 71 of 1962. It is the practice of placing a live animal in a captive situation with a predator, to be attacked and eaten.

This is not to be confused with the prey / predator relationship in the wild. Captive animals are in a completely different situation and "feeding live prey" is often the easy way or soft route taken by people with captive animals. There are accepted and humane ways to feed captive predators.

Claims that placing a live animal in an enclosure with a predator stimulates hunting or natural predator instincts is refuted: - this practice usually takes place where the predator is in a permanently captive situation or is simply used as an exhibition or display.

It is an unacceptable practice – illegal and opposed by the SPCA movement’s Statement of Policy.

Ends

To actually quote the part of their laws that forbid live feeding in South Africa, with the exact wording highlighted:

’…save for the purpose of training hounds maintained by a duly established and registered vermin club in the destruction of vermin, liberates any animal in such a manner or place as to expose it to immediate attack or danger of attack by other animals or by wild animals, or baits or provokes any animal or incites any animal to attack another animal; …’

Austrian laws that prohibit the killing of animals. See how live prey is excluded by the highlighted area.

Prohibition of killing animals
§ 6. (1) It is prohibited to kill animals without proper reason.
(2) It is prohibited to kill dogs or cats for the purpose of manufacturing food or other products.
(3) The killing of animals for educational, training or advanced training purposes is only allowed to be performed in scientific institutions and only admissible to the extent that it is
indispensable for reaching a particular objective, provided that it cannot be replaced by alternative methods.
(4) Without prejudice to the prohibitions under paras 1 and 2, deliberate killing of vertebrates, is only allowed to be performed by veterinarians. This is not applicable
1. to professionally skilled killing of farm animals or fodder animals (§ 32),
2. for professionally skilled killing of animals within the scope of education, training and advanced training in accordance with para 3,
3. for professionally skilled pest control,
4. in cases requiring an animal to be killed without delay in order to keep it from suffering irremediable torments.

It is also illegal in Canada to use any LIVE animal as food for ANY other animal, humans included. The same restrictions are found in Swedish laws and those of Scotland and other European countries. There are even petitions going about to stop pet supply stores from selling rodents and rabbits to be used as live prey.



So how come it's not forbidden in the US? It's probably not because people don't find it wrong. We're also one of the few countries that has not outlawed beastiality. But while it is not SPECIFICALLY forbidden, it is forbidden to put an animal in distress, and it is quite likely that those poor mice and hares are in just that state before being fed alive to other animals.

[Shard]

Again, see, I *understand* but I disagree.

I don't think that taking a food animal out of a cage of a predator "because it looked afraid" is valid. At all. I think it's actually rather ridiculous. The thing is a prey animal. It fits its niche, in nature and in pet cages. Some people like keeping rabbits and mice and guinea pigs as pets - and I'm sure they're nice because they're fluffy and small. But they are regardless of any of that cuteness *animals that usually wind up getting eaten*. They are herbivores. "Aww it's so cute" doesn't hack it.

I don't feel sorry for them. I don't feel bad when bambi gets taken down by the big bad wolf. That's how life works. I do not feel sorry for the antelope when a cheetah swipes its legs out from under it. Neither do I feel sorry for the rabbits I feed to the snake I own - we have plenty of rabbits. If I were feeding some nearly extinct extremely valuable animal to the snake, maybe there would be some issues... But honestly - I simply disagree that 'it looked scared' is a valid excuse to prevent an animal from eating normally.

I don't think it's an issue in the usa first and formost because of the NRA. Oh my god would the rifle people have a hissy fit if you couldn't kill animals. Because of course, that's why they have their guns, second only to 'protecting their families'... :/ The group - while I hate it - has its place, and has their say, a very large say, in congress. I mean, the VP shot his friend, hunting... (lol aim higher pal, aim higher) I doubt that most of the lawmakers in the usa would take it more seriously than they already do.

Plus, it's a very large country. Built on a 'pioneer' spirit (and I'm using <sarcasm> here so bear with me, I'm playing devil's advocate for a moment) that involves doing what you want, protecting yourself and your family from the wilds, a fierce determination that pits you vs nature. I realize that's stupid, but it's likely a reason.

If laws such as ones saying "only kill vertebrate by a vet" were passed... what about the entire meat industry? Sorry - I'm a meat eater. So is about 80% or more of the world, let alone the country. My ex is a vegetarian and for a while I was too, but frankly I like meat. It would be ridiculous to pass laws which someone - PETA - would probably try to use to stop anyone from eating what they're meant to eat. Even if it were given the exclusions that the Australian law shows, *someone* would try it. That's what our country's law system is about, apparently.

And even with the exclusions, it would also ruin any form of science class, any ability to explore with kids what life is all about. The specific of "without being replaceable by other means" pretty much means "a text book will suffice". It doesn't. People who are becoming vets or doctors should never be the only ones able to or willing to cut open an animal and see how it works. I had several science classes and I was never one of those kids afraid to cut open a frog or whatever. We had more rats than we needed after dissecting them, I took a couple home. The kind of ignorance that this sort of law encourages is very disheartening to me.

I don't disagree that animals should not be placed in situations which are *useless* such as perfume and makeup experiments, and the like. But they're required for scientific use, they're necessary for cures and surgical procedures to be developed, and the like. The animals that were bred for lab work are *not* the same as those outside in the wild. Period. They're not pets, they're simply a different breed. White mice are *not* like wild mice, they are so unlike them in fact it'd be like comparing apples to persimmons...

Dairy cows must be milked once or more a day, or their milk glands will overload and literally trip them. They cannot be let out to the 'wild' as they are not wild animals. In my opinion we're simply doing what we do best: manipulate nature to our end. Since I cannot manipulate a snake to do what I want it to or what someone else thinks is "humane", I'll do the next best thing, and feed it an animal that has never once known what it's like to be in a burrow under a hill pursued by anything. Captive bred animals *are not wild* (mammals, I mean) and don't act the same and *cannot* be made to be wild animals. Feral at best, perhaps, but they can't be forced to learn instincts that have been forcibly bred out of them hundreds of generations before.

I don't feel sorry for prey animals. It pretty much comes down to that. I don't think it's inhumane to allow a snake to eat prey it's killed, in the same way I cannot say it's inhumane for a shark to eat a guy's leg, or for a lion to eat a zebra. It's simply the way they're meant to do it. If I were sent out to an ice floe because I was old and infirm, quite frankly, at least I'd be of use to the world if a polar bear got me. If my snake gets out and eats one of my cats, well, that's the way it goes too.

[Carodos]

Hun, we both know that it doesn't say 'only a vet'. Because I am very sure you saw below that where it outlined the slaughter industry. There are whole sets of laws for that. And hunting is permitted under certain circumstances. The part I highlighted were only the parts relevant to the feeding of living animals to another, which is legal in very few places, for the sake of prey and predator alike.

And as for the USA and freedoms, we both know without sarcasm what a load of bull that is in most cases. Freedom is a distinct illusion. Teddy Roosevelt himself said that his freedom to swing his fist ends where the other man's nose begins. If we have laws preventing the destruction of forests and the creatures within them for poor reasons and doing nothing to restore them, then we are hypocritical to bring harm to yet another living creature that cannot defend itself. While Prey might be it's niche prey is always given that chance in the wild to try to get away. These aren't. Buying animals to feed to other animals is looked upon as immoral in the rest of the world and is but another reason for other countries to look down upon our country that is no better than a ten year old throwing a temper tantrum.

And we aren't here talking about cows or lab mice. We're talking about the breeding of animals to be consumed alive. Because face it, they are relatively still alive when they are eaten. In the wild it might be okay but houses and tanks are NOT the wild. The snakes aren't completely wild. And the mice sure as hell aren't.

[Shard]

But that's my point really: They're not wild - they are *bred for being prey*. Their ancestors did not get away from us well enough to enjoy their wild nature, so now they are food. Cows, sheep, pigs, whatever - down to rabbits, game birds, and chickens. If they were able in some way when we began to domesticate them, to get away from us or prove they weren't for eating, we'd stop hunting them.

The only predators we usually eat are sharks and other sea foods. Predators apparently don't taste very good unless they're filled with fat. Herbivores have proven themselves as tasty, healthy, energy food. This is true in any natural environ as well as in human terms.

*shrug* I just don't equate certain animals with any emotional connection. If there were laws here about it: I would break them. Period. I don't think it makes me immoral or unethical - I think it means my animal eats well, I get to watch a predator take down its food, it continues to live with me. Let's face it: I'm the one with the thumbs in this relationship with animal life. We win. To me, the word and concept of 'humane' extends only to humans. It doesn't mean that my animals must behave that way, even if they're *capable* of it.

I take spiders outside and let them go into the bushes. I feed bunnies to my snake. I guess it's all a personal decision.

[Astra]

Live prey or pre-killed, it doesnt really matter, they still end up as lunch. You can say that the pre-killed ones are treated more humanely, but I think if I were a mouse and I either had a big fanged snake coming after me or some men in white coats with needles, I'd still know I was pretty much screwed. If rodents cannot be bred specificly to be food for pets, then why do we breed pigs and (non-dairy) cattle for the same purpose? Why is it okay for us, but not for the snakes? I personally wouldn't feed a snake live prey, but really, it's a free country. Snakes have to eat, and even though pre-killed food makes us feel all good and self-righteous and holier-than-thou, the fact remains that it had to be killed at some point.

[Shard]

My only concern about any prey - live or dead - is that it's not diseased. Beyond that, I couldn't care less if a food animal is force-fed, stuck in a big room, or whatever. The only issue is disease. That's primarily why I don't eat much poultry, because it *is* easily diseased. (though I got my ecoli infection from vegetables, it was still a chicken bowl that got me with my last food poisoning bit... meh.)

As Khavi said, "come sad one. Dead is dead. Alive is better." ... and I suppose one could take that any number of ways!

[Dray]

Holy shit, Carodos, double-standards, much? O_o' You say people are hypocritical, and I have to agree with you there.

[Rachael]

Heh, I'm sorry, but... Buying animals to feed other animals is what we do every day. We, too, are animals; in other countries, you go to market, buy a cat, dog, rooster, you name it, take it home, still alive, and then kill it for dinner. Some cats get their legs tied together and thrown into boiling water - still alive. Lobsters and crabs, too.

So frankly, you shove a living lobster into boiling water, and you make off like a bandit eating that. I see the validity of where you're coming from. I just don't agree. People already "act" inhumanely; other animals, by nature, act "inhumanely" for they are not human.

Domesticated species are dependent on us; they are bred to provide us with resources; they are killed for these same things. They aren't saved a degree of terror (come now, hypnotizing your lobster?) because of a preventitive measure enacted beforehand.

And to each their own, however; better off that way.

[Astra]

Yes. It's sort of the same thing -- we go to the store and buy a dead frozen chicken breast and then cook it and feed it to our families. But on old-timey farms, the farmer's wife would go out into the yard and find a chicken and kill it herself before preparing it for dinner. The result in the end is the same -- the family eats chicken for dinner. Buying pre-killed food makes us feel all good about ourselves because we don't have to think about where it came from but that doesn't mean it's not the same thing.

[caesiusdraco]

Actually, frozen mice aren't killed by euthanasia. They're flash frozen. Basically put in holding chambers and exposed to unbelievably cold temperatures.

And snakes don't actually kill prey by suffocation. That's what it looks like from the outside. But, if you were able to wrestle that mouse/rat/whatever away from your snake and cut it open, as gruesome as it sounds, blood would pour everywhere. Far much more than normal from that type of incision.
The real cause of death is that the internal organs pop, and the animal actually dies of massive internal hermoraging.

If I had to choose between either of those, give me a good, strong pop to the head any day.

Unfortunately, what's true with dogs and cats can't be applied to reptiles. It's a whole new ballgame. Cats and dogs have been domesticated for centuries, millennia even. Reptiles are one-step out of nature. They don't crave the social structure or even the affection that our more furry companions do. Even the rare "cuddly" reptiles don't share that mindset.
Unfortunately, not only the reptile feeding instinct, but their very eyesight is triggered by motion. Putting all the species on average, their vision sucks. It's the movement of the animal that gets their attention and allows them to focus. Other things that add to that are heat and smell.
Prekilled animals produce little or any of these things. Plus, most prekilled alternatives lose most of their nutrients in the packaging and preserving stages. Frozen mice are the exception, and if you keep them frozen for more than 6 months, it's like feeding your snake cardboard.
So, for your average lizard, even those you could convince to eat pre-killed, which is few, would suffer from some pretty severe deficiencies if fed an all packaged diet without major supplementation.

Unfortunately, by making the choice to take these animals out of their native environments and breed them as pets, we have to realize that other beings have to give their lives to keep these animals healthy and happy.
Animals are still lost in the processing of dog and cats food. They all contain some amount of chicken, lamb, or beef. We just don't see it happen.

We're really not any better as humans, really. Unless you live a completely Vegan lifestyle, which is virtually impossible, eating or using animal product is a necessity of being carnivorous. That's just the way of nature.

There are, of course, kinder ways of doing things. Which is why I'm a fan of bashing the mouse before the snake, or smacking the head of your lobster with the meat hammer before you throw it into the pot.

But, it's all a necessary evil. Especially where animals are concerned.

[Shard]

I just wonder why there's no mouse or bird flavored cat food.

[Mystic Dragon]

"New to shelves! Canary and goldfish! Just the combination your cat will love and your wife will divorce you for buying!"

[Shard]

Buzzard brand cat chow! All the finest ... parts... without the stench of death!

[caesiusdraco]

LOL! You guys just made my day. XD