Remember Shiolar? (Poll Added)

[Dray]

Now, there's (interestingly enough) two ways to see this. He never took those dragons or anything down. Never. Which means he either intended from the start to come back, oooorrr... left them up, but purposely "locked" behind the entry-page, as spite. (Because, if I remember correctly, around then was the first time we started really getting into tracing genealogies, so having things *that close*, but locked away, was supposed to act as a "haha-suuucckkkaasss!" moment)

Yes, this. His 'eff you' note included a bit about how if you were on good terms with him, he'd be willing to give you the links to things you might need, but everyone else could suck it. It was definitely a spite thing. It was probably also that he wanted to come back but figured that if he waited a good long time, we'd be hesitant enough (and had enough of a turn over?) that he'd be accepted?

I don't know, I don't... REALLY care at this point. I've grown up a bunch, if he came back and pulled bullcrap on me I wouldn't gripe and moan behind his back, I'd probably tell him to knock it off straight-up. I hate it when people act spoilt or superior (or worse, both at once) so I would probably just ignore him for the most part. Decent looking artwork is not enough for me to put up with rotten behavior, but if you guys were more interested in seeing art from him or getting candidates from him, then that's your prerogative. Just remember that anything that you do or say can and probably will be used against you at some point in the court of Shiolar's ethical and mental higher ground.

Bah, enough bitching about it from me.

[dracosinfernoweyr]

As someone who also wasn't involved at all with what went down with Shiolar, I kind of second the not letting him back in sentiment. I wasn't especially close to him, nor did I know about the Flurry happenings, but he always did come off as a condescending jerk from the outside. I didn't even know he'd been the one to drive off Lakota and Skysong, I was wondering what happened to them. I miss their contributions. :(

Yeah, we could use more active members, but things have always slowed down during the school year, plus I think most of us in school are on the cusp of graduation so we're having to buckle down more than in previous years. It'll pick up eventually. We could also help ourselves out and advertise more, I'm sure. :P

I agree with whoever said that he wouldn't be worth the temporary spike of activity, partially because he might have another one of those hissyfits and potentially drive off even MORE people who are integral parts of our small community, and partially because some of us would be tiptoeing around him in an attempt to prevent said hissyfit, so it would just make things generally uncomfortable when he's involved. We have to remember that the last time he freaked, we lost THREE members of the community. What if that happens again? We really can't afford another of that kind of loss. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't want to have to be on tenterhooks in something that's supposed to be a fun hobby.

And I agree with Dray that his little apology to Phe seems so contrived. He's just saying what he thinks we want to hear from him, it's kind of like what a child who knows he's done something wrong and doesn't give two shits about it would say in apology. :/ And the screw you message - I never personally saw it but I also agree with Starfyre, if he felt spiteful enough to pay to leave an insulting message on the internet for 3 or so years? That kind of immaturity doesn't just magically go away one day...

[Xalia]

Well, it seems I've wandered back into the Nexus at quite the interesting time. As a mod, I feel the need to put in my two cents although I don't think I've even come to a conclusion in my own mind as to what should be done. I've read through most of the posts here (I admit, my attention span is somewhat lacking as I'm struggling to shake off a truly horrendous cold so I did not read all of them in their entirety but I believe I've read a majority of them) and feel the need to contribute. As I've been mostly absent for a long time I completely understand if you all want to disregard my contribution.

I am always for second chances, without them I know many a person who might not have survived, no matter how trivial the second chance may have seemed at the time. In fact, I work in a program that is all about second chances. Those who for some reason or another can't succeed in the traditional setting come to my program for another chance to succeed. No matter how royally they've screwed up. However, if they do not fulfill the requirements of the contract they sign when they enroll they are not allowed to remain.

If we are to give Shiolar/Ktrenal/Kim/whoever permission to return to us I think provisions must be laid down. As one of the people who voted to ban him three years ago I don't suggest this lightly. My job as mod on the Nexus was most trying when he was a member as there were often wounded egos on both sides of an unpleasant Shiolar encounter that needed soothing once the flames of the argument had been removed from the forum. However, if he's changed enough to try to rejoin us in a mature manner (though honestly, I believe the e-mail request should have proceeded the attempt to rejoin, not the other way around) I find it hard to make myself refuse him the chance to redeem himself. But if he were to be allowed back in it would be on the condition that if he caused one spot of trouble it would mean an instant ban.

At the same time I recall an old saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

So there, that is my two cents and you may do with it what you will.

[delyar]

Let me preface this by saying I was mostly gone by the time the whole Flurry thing went down and that I don't mean to be offensive.

Guys, we've got to stop being a bunch of doormats.

This guy was annoying, manipulative, shady, rude and spiteful. Sure, he drew pretty pictures, but how many people (who were active at that time) felt negatively impacted by his behaviour? He drove away several people for good - excellent artists, nice women - and was basically a total douchebag. And we sat there and took it. TWICE.

I say screw letting him back in. It's quiet, yes, but I, personally, much prefer a quiet Nexus to the headache it can be. (We've all been offended at some point, right?) Letting a guy who is KNOWN to have caused this shit back in because we don't feel right to tell him he's a jerk? That's just silly.

Though oh boy I kind of wish I was around for the live feed thing. :P *puts her pre-vet student hat on*

[Shard]

Heh, as the focus of the live feed issue, let me just say, it was waaaaay out of proportion for any argument. The thread might still be around, either in the archive section or in the Phorum, not sure.

[JKatkina]

Here's the live-feed thread.

Hey, anyone who thinks Shiolar should be let back in, I urge you to read his 'Equal Rights' thread from the Debate and Discuss forum so long ago. Or even just the first post.

Seriously, if anyone can read that and still wants this utterly reprehensible human being to be given a third chance, I will be dumbfounded.

He thought he was hard put on because he's white, male and able. He reminds me of exactly the kind of person who makes my life hell by saying idiot shit like 'well I'm all for the gays, as long as they're not being affectionate in public'.

All my life, I've been pushed around by members of minority groups who feel they have more rights than me, and no one ever does anything about it because they're part of a minority and thus immune to the consequences of their actions."

Yes, I'll admit I've given snipes here. But, I'm the minority group, which means that, according to Lakota's viewpoint, it's okay for me to snipe. *shrugs*

Even IF he had a point, and he might have had a point in certain respects, he was a jerk about it the entire debate. The entire time! He knew he was being a jerk and didn't stop. He saw no reason then to change his behavior, and I would be shocked if he's changed it now. For the love of god, guys, don't let this guy back in! Please!

[delyar]

Bloody hell.

[StarFyre]

That's actually only part of the live-feed thread, and mostly involves Carados and Shard (I don'th think Carados was a Shiolar-clone?) -- I can't find where it actually began, but that's probably because I haven't combed through the entirety of the Phorum.

This really all boils back down to the age factor, for me. I'd be more inclined to let someone back in if they were a teen and threw that type of hissyfit, though with some reservation and rules like Xalia mentioned. Because let's face it -- how many of us weren't volatile, unpredictable, and occasionally self-righteous jerks when we were going through the teen years? I know I was.

But the real fact of the matter is -- he's 30 now. I just have to think about my brother to know where that self-righteous entitlement leads to (in fact, minus the two year age difference, the fact that he's apparently British, and the whole "I can draw" thing that Shiolar has going on, I'd almost think Shiolar was my brother). For the record, I haven't seen or heard from my brother in about seven years, now, and that's not from lack of trying on my or my parents' parts. We're "farm folk" -- totally beneath his notice. As a result, I have no idea if I'm an aunt, if my brother is married, divorced, fisking the entire world population... I have no idea of anything.

And frankly? I'm better for having him out of my life. He was getting... interesting near the end.

But in any case, at 30, someone's personality is pretty much set. We can make agreements, set down rules, and so on like Xalia said (and frankly, I think her ideas are the best to go with if we decide to bring Shiolar back. In fact, I think we should specifically pester the poor cold-afflicted woman to help us set up the sort of agreement we'd need, since she apparently does this a lot. My two cents on that.), but my honest gut feeling on this is that it's a bad idea.

This is the problem with teh intarwebs. As humans we rely so much on tone of voice and facial expression and body language. Strip all that away into text, and interpretation becomes open to context. I know we've all bristled at what was meant to be a joke at one point or another, or gotten riled by some badly placed sarcasm. But my overall impression of Shiolar, based on reviewing the very, very few chatlogs I have of that time, along with reading what remains of his posts here on the Nexus (I know the really nasty ones were deleted for the sake of sanity), is that of a spoiled brat who never grew up.

But I'm reiterating things at this point that've been said by much more eloquent people than me.


Jkat: It's amusing that you mention gays specifically, cause according to an old chat I have with me'n Nessie, Shiolar had told her that he was gay. Just an interesting bit of irony there. And I guess I count as one of his "evil minorities" now, seeing as I'm a female in a male dominated field (Computer Science), with a permanent spinal injury and possibly something very wrong with my head. Hmm...

[Xenoqueen]

Because I am human and therefore biased, I've added a poll to the first post. Boil your opinion down to a yes or a no, and click the button for me. I didn't put in an Abstain/Undecided because if you fall into that group, you can simply leave the poll alone.

Whether I let him back in or not shall be left up to majority vote.

We'll worry about the details of that final result once it's clear.

[Dray]

lolvote cast. Almost hit 'yes' because everybody actually considering letting him back with these passive aggressive rules that sound like they're about making him feel uncomfortable enough to go away without us actually have to be firm about it has been making me feel particularly trollish. Realized that, being a troll, I should not feed myself. Went for the sensible answer.

(On a side note: polls are the epitomy of human, therefore biased -- sometimes we Nexians do not know how to help ourselves, though the last few posts have bolstered my trust in the community.)

[jess d]

I vote no.

I don't know how relevant it is to the discussion, but I know for a fact that the mods on PI believe he is female. I happened to mention him in a thread elsewhere, I don't remember exactly where now, but one of the PI members had also been a mod jumped on me calling him a guy, saying she knew Ktrenal, had talked to "her" personally (I don't know if she meant actually in person or via phone/IM/whatever), and that Ktrenal was definitely female.

After dealing with the blowup and everything over here, I don't know if I believe that, but it seems he/she? is still not telling everyone the same thing >.>

[Yakima]

I'm staying out of the poll. One, I know I've had my own hissy-fits over the last few years (er...month...*sinks very, very low in chair...then sits up thanks to cramps...urg*). Two, I will just go with what everyone else decides because I don't remember anything being directed at me and I think I kind of walked in on the thread at the end, and blinked when I heard he had left. My sites are all in a limbo right now with what I'm going to do with them as I want to go back to more story-based sites so I can write again...nothing I intend to do will matter if he's here or not.

So, votes up to the rest of you. I don't care what happens. I'm keeping my own head down for a while. lol

[Dray]

Wow, that's amazing.

Somehow I'm not surprised that he's causing drama over there, too.

[jess d]

I don't know if there's any actual drama - the comment I had made was on an off-site adoptable forum that happened to be frequented my another mod - I can't remember which one though. I seemed to be the only one who knew anything about the "past", and I don't usually have too much to do with the mods, so I haven't dealt with it at all. I just thought it very odd

[StarFyre]

Precedent. As Jkat mentioned earlier, the first time Shiolar was here, he was here as Kim, and passed himself off as female. He seems to like doing that.

[Shard]

On PI, his profile says male, though - so maybe the mod was just an idiot - which isn't too far a stretch. When they announced ktrenal was a mod, I immediately notified one of the other mods of his prior actions and how he had disrupted things here so much, and lied about many things before then too. I didn't get a reply, of course - they're "too busy" to address things like that, or too cowardly.

I think the fact that there is even a discussion going on about whether to allow or not says more than any of our individual desires - to hope he's changed, is to fear that he hasn't, and frankly we don't need fear around here.

[Xenoqueen]

Alright, it's been a week since Shiolar/etc. first contacted me and I'm getting queries from him again, so with a ratio nearly 2:1 of "No", such shall be the final verdict.

Now... I'm really bad at rejection letters. I always feel like I have to justify things. Should I, or do I just tell him the vote and leave it at that? O.o;

Hi,

It's been a week now, so I was just wondering if I could request an update. Is the matter still undergoing discussion? If so, is there anything I can do that will assist the process?

Ktrenal

[Dray]

I think that in this case, letting him know that the vote is 'no' is probably more polite than giving reasons. If he asks for reasons then giving them a quick summary that's free from subjective opinions is a good way to go about it?

I just think that with the way that Shiolar has reacted in the past to lengthy justifications, heaping 'em on in the first email is going to get his goat again.

[Xenoqueen]

Alright, this is all I sent him, then. If I get any further response from him, I'll let everyone know.

My apologies for leaving you hanging. I wanted to make sure there was time enough for everyone who had an opinion to chime in.

But the discussion and poll have had no new input in the last few days, so it was closed earlier today and the majority vote to letting you back in is "no", by 12 to 5.

[Xenoqueen]

And that seems to be the end of it.

Alright, thanks for letting me know. Pretty much what I expected to hear, to be honest. In a situation of 'yes, but no, but yes, but no', it really means the answer is 'no'.

If you could relay my apologies for the past to the community, it would be appreciated, but I understand if that's not something you wish to do.

It was nice speaking to you again, despite the circumstances. I wish you and the others well for the future.

Ktrenal

[Dray]

Huh. Go Shiolar for a graceful d'enouement. Glad that he took it well, thanks for letting us know, Phe!

[Kitsuneko]

Just so you all know, Shiolar/Ktrenal sent me an email earlier about some urls, and I decided I'm going to let him continue to send candidates to my own agencies. I doubt this would have any effect on the rest of the Nexus, especially considering how dead everything has been anyway. (I think it's time to do some advertising.)

[delyar]

I doubt that us banning him from the forums is supposed to have any over-reaching effect on whether or not his candidates can be accepted. I just find his forum manner to be disruptive.

[Dray]

Doesn't bother me either. :)

[Xenoqueen]

Agreed, anyone who wants to deal with him privately, that's completely their prerogative.