Girls can have balls too

[Cy]

Puppy's grown =]




Also, I have new pictures of Absinthe:





And some new ones of Puppy:


























Just thought I'd share, as well as show you guys I'm not dead ^_^

[Graeth]

So, what kind of mischevious places have they gotten into?

[Shard]

Puppy is so gorgeous, just ... unbelievable. dark and shiny!

[Cy]

So, what kind of mischevious places have they gotten into?

So far nowhere =] They've both been very well behaved. Absinthe is fast as sin, so Tim keeps a close eye on her when handling her, and Puppy is a cuddlebug and my baby. So he never strays far from his mommy.

We're hoping to breed Absinthe next season =]

Puppy is so gorgeous, just ... unbelievable. dark and shiny!

That's one of the reasons I picked him. Even as a hatchling he was gorgeous compared to his siblings. Male or female [I'm not completely sure yet] I'm sure he'll make some beautiful babies. Like Absinthe, once I find a suitable male/female, it'll be breeding time for him too ^_^

YAY BABIES!

Who wants an eggy?

[Shard]

I believe he's a male - the end of his body and the start of his tail are so abrupt, I *think* that's what distinguishes male from female easily. Mine, she's basically the same width all the way to the end of the tail, slowly tapering down to the tip, whereas Puppy ends abruptly and the tail is very narrow for a while.

[Midori]

sooooo cute...

Egg I wish my mummy would kill me she like pretty snakes. x.x

[Cy]

I believe he's a male - the end of his body and the start of his tail are so abrupt, I *think* that's what distinguishes male from female easily. Mine, she's basically the same width all the way to the end of the tail, slowly tapering down to the tip, whereas Puppy ends abruptly and the tail is very narrow for a while.

That's been my opinion too. I've called him a male ever since I laid eyes on him. He just seems like a male too. But I've been told different things. The owner before me said he was a female, as did the herp girl at the store. But then another girl working at the store said not to always trust the herp girl's opinion because she'd never really been to a herp school, just really liked snakes.

I've been thinking about popping him, but I'm scared to do it on my own. I don't want to hurt him. There are no local herp vets around here, and even if there were, I won't have the money to take him until after Christmas.

But yes, after Christmas, they're both going to go in for a check up and for sexing, so that I can start looking for suitable mates for the breeding season.

You should post some pics of your girl Shard =]

[Shard]

It's really hard to get good pix of an 8+ foot snake, because really, I can't take her anywhere without worrying she'll wander off, *and* take pix of her lol. But I'm gonna try. she's very plump right now from the 2 bunnies she ate. My mom was STUNNED at the fact that she could open her face that wide. I said, "look look you gotta see this!" because the rabbit was about shoulders-up in the snake's mouth. Mouth = OOOOOPEN. I'm like, "see where the fur ends? That's where the HEAD STARTS." lawls!

I do highly recommend taking them to a vet for sexing, because every site I've gone to says DON'T do it yourself. Just that the shape of that tail is so very very different from mine, and I did get Carmine sexed, so I know she's female.

They have LOTS of bebbies. Like, 20-60. that's... a lot! lol! And btw they are live bearers, not egg layers, so... squirmies!

[Cy]

The balls will lay eggs though =] So Puppy or his mate [erm... whichever of them is the girl] will have eggies. Absinthe will have live.

Eep yay rabbits! Absinthe is only up to guinea pigs, when I can find them. Usually she has to deal with multiple rats.

Have you ever had problems getting yours to eat prekilled? Neither Absinthe nor Puppy will. It worries me, because even if I knock their food out just enough so that it is still squirming, but unable to do much of anything, they look at it as though it's crap. But the moment you plop a live one down in the feeding tub, they're in snake heaven. They torture the poor things, chasing them around the tank on purpose, purposefully missing and teasing their dinner. Jerk snakes XD But yes, even trying to feed them prekilled with tongs and such rarely works. I've had it work maybe twice, no matter how hungry they are.

[Shard]

I have only prekilled one rat for Carmine and that was it. She eats live prey, and I won't try prestunning a rat any more. I'd far rather she do it, because thats what she's good at... Heck, its her only purpose in life, so... why not let her do it right?

I had to stun a rat, because one time she had a rat that was a smidge too big for her, and it scratched her face pretty severely. She got a wound and an attitude, so I had to bring her something smaller. Put it in a bag and whacked it against the floor - which broke its head open and made it shudder with spasms and that was far far worse than anything she'd do to it. I prefer not to ever do that crap again.

They offer frozen rabbits at the other store I go to, but hell with that, I've got food in my freezer, I'm not gonna thaw a whole rabbit out in my fridge. She wouldn't touch it anyway - they like moving, live, opponent-prey... Stick with live if you possibly can.

[Cy]

Some people just make me feel bad, berating me for it and how the rodent can harm the snake. But neither Puppy nor Absinthe have ever been so much as scratched by a rodent. They'll play with them, yes, but the minute either of them are ready to eat, that's that. Game over. Hell, Absinthe will damn near knock the feeding tub over when she strikes her rat or guinea pig. They're both fast as hell and if it ain't broke, why fix it?

But yes, like I said, people guilt trip me >.<

[Shard]

Meh, don't let em. I mean, what are we trying to do to these animals? We alreday feed our cats freaking grain mush and bone meal. Is that what they normally eat in the wild? Um,.... no? Why isn't there mouse flavored cat food!? (And for that matter, sparrow, squirrel, snake and grasshopper flavors?)

PetSmart, where I go to get my cat food, won't even sell animals that use live prey except for small things like crickets and fishies. But heck - that's so silly to me. These are 200 million year old animal genes we're talking about, not something that bends to our whim very easily. Like you said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Astra]

I think I read somewhere -- maybe here -- that the mice they use for food are NOT the same mice they use for little pet mice, either. Feedstock mice are inbred beyond belief and will continually run into the wall of the cage. Really the snake is doing them a favor, putting the poor things out of their misery.

[Shiolar]

Course, over here it's illegal to feed live vertebrates to another animal... Crickets and such are allowed, but anything that's not an insect has to be killed in a humane manner before being given to the snake... Turning it loose into a tank with a snake or whatever is deemed to be unnecessarily cruel, and thus has been illegal for many years. Even zoos and such aren't allowed to feed live prey.

[Mystic Dragon]

.... Cause, yanno, animals in the wild naturally find food that's already been killed in a humane way.

>.> I just find that to be a silly rule.

[Shard]

Course, over here it's illegal to feed live vertebrates to another animal... Crickets and such are allowed, but anything that's not an insect has to be killed in a humane manner before being given to the snake... Turning it loose into a tank with a snake or whatever is deemed to be unnecessarily cruel, and thus has been illegal for many years. Even zoos and such aren't allowed to feed live prey.

o.0

Yeah that's pretty innane. Zoos don't normally feed live prey anyway - because they monitor all the dietary needs specifically and often insert vitamine suppliments into the carcass or the meatballs. (They feed meatballs to the cheetahs, it's awesome to watch.)

But ... it always sounds like someone specifically has an issue with this, and decides that it's somehow better to do it this way even when nothing in real life does it 'humane'. I mean... how humane is watching a stunned rat stagger around having seizures while his brain leaks out? *shudders* Its entirely *inhumane* in my opinion.

[Cy]

I think I read somewhere -- maybe here -- that the mice they use for food are NOT the same mice they use for little pet mice, either. Feedstock mice are inbred beyond belief and will continually run into the wall of the cage. Really the snake is doing them a favor, putting the poor things out of their misery.

I said it here, and it's in lots of other places. It's very true that they are highly different. Working in a petstore where we sell both feeder animals and pet animals has proven that. Our pet rats are super intelligent, generally really sweet, and easily trained. But our feeders? Eh, they'd rather gnaw your hand off. They run into things, and sometimes, they'll freakin' crawl on top of the snake. Um, hello? Haha. But yeah.

I inject liquid calcium into the rats and such that I feed my snakes, to keep their skin and scales healthy. But I agree. No animal, except for scavengers, in the wild are going to eat something 'humanely' killed.

Some pet chains here, like PetSmart, have it set up now that you have to sign all these contracts and such saying you're not going to use them as food or bait. The store I worked at is the only store in my town that sells feeder animals, but even at that, once we're out of feeders, we won't sell our pet animals as food, unless you want to pay the full price [a feeder rat runs about 5$, depending on size, and a pet ret will go for 15$ or so] so we try to discourage it unless someone is desperate.



And just for fun
Some new pictures from tonight.

[Shiolar]

Well, over here you basically have to buy frozen mice, rats, whatever, keep 'em in your freezer, then defrost them when you need to feed the snake... It's quite creepy, actually... my partner's sister has snakes, and while staying at their place once, I went looking for food in the freezer, and found a pack of frozen mice...

But yeah, those are killed humanely then frozen. Then you buy extra vitamin supplements and so on to make up for any nutrients lost by having frozen food. Buying live animals and killing them (or stunning them) is illegal. I knew a woman once who bought a load of gerbils and started breeding them to feed to her snake, and she was actually prosecuted for it.

I suppose part of it is because the animal welfare movement in this country is VERY powerful. Britain is known for having a population that cares for its animals more than any other country in the world, and that goes from dogs and cats to small rodents (both pets and those fed to snakes and such) to birds and even to the meat animals (cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, etc).

If something has to die to feed something else, it has to be done by professionals who can do it quickly and humanely, whether it's a cow being killed for human consumption, or a mouse for snake consumption. And our animal protection societies are powerful enough to kick up a huge amount of fuss to make sure it happens.

And I guess snakes that won't eat dead animals get hungry enough to do so eventually... *shrugs*

I respect you guys rights to feed your snakes live prey, I suppose. Freedom and all. But it seems unnecessarily cruel to me. Even if you do consider it a kindness to let the snake eat the horribly inbred rodents, the fact remains that it's not a humane way to die.

The point of being human is that we have the intelligence to realise that other living things don't have to suffer when they die so that they can be eaten. A wild animal doesn't know any better, but we do. Therefore, simply because we're sapient, we can make the choice to deviate from the 'natural' way. We made that choice when we started shooting anything that has the audacity to try eating a human.

*shrugs* You won't agree with me, because you guys all have very different standards on what constitutes animal cruelty, and I don't want to argue.

Just wanted to make my views known.

Very gorgeous snakes though, Cy, and you're a pretty good photographer, too.

[Shard]

But do they prosecute foxes and cats for hunting? Or snakes for that matter? I understand the fervor over *humans* doing these things to animals - but to enforce that on animals ... is kind of weird.

How many mouser cats does it take to keep a farm from being overrun by mice? That's their job, you know? Because setting traps and poisons are both inhumane and environmentally unsound, cats do the job so much better...

*shrugs* I understand, I just think it's a little strange to try and make animals be human, when they just aren't. I do remember seeing something about the outrage over some breed of dogs being used for scientific research, a couple years ago. They shut that science firm down, didn't they?

It is really conflicting to me, because I don't belive that we should be abusive toward animals, but they also don't have rights because they simply aren't what we are. *shrug* Dunno.

And .... a pack of frozen mice in the freezer. heh.... eew.

[Shiolar]

I never said they prosecuted animals. The woman with the snake who bred gerbils as live food, SHE was the one who got arrested and prosecuted, not the snake. Because she was the one who deliberately inflicted suffering on the gerbils. Giving an animal to another animal to be killed is considered just as cruel as hurting it yourself.

What about if you throw say... live rabbits or cats into a pen with a dog? That's no different to throwing live mice in with a snake.

The point of view over here is that when you take an animal for a pet, then you are responsible for its actions. Which means if your snake kills a mouse in a cruel manner, you are essentially doing it yourself. The snake doesn't know any better, but as a sapient human, you ARE supposed to know better.

By giving live food to a snake, you're causing unnecessary suffering to the food you give it. No matter how inbred or stupid you think it is, it's still a living thing and capable of suffering. The last few minutes of its life are extremely unpleasant and deemed to be animal cruelty. Because you had the choice to NOT give it food capable of experiencing suffering, you're held legally responsible for the cruelty to that animal.

I don't believe in animal rights. But I do believe in animal welfare. The two are completely separate, although lots of people don't know the difference these days. Animal welfare means to accept that animals aren't intelligent and aren't capable of making rational choices like a human does, so therefore don't warrant the same rights as humans, but still believe firmly that no animal should go through any unnecessary suffering. Just because it's not intelligent doesn't mean it can't feel pain or fear.

That means that you don't prosecute wild animals for their actions, but where you have a human being that's accepted responsibility for that animal, they are held liable for anything that animal does. If a dog bites a human, it's the owner who's prosecuted. If a snake eats a live mouse, it's the owner that's prosecuted. Because that was all the owner's choice.

Now, mouser cats. Obviously having mice and rats on a farm is a bad idea. They can spoil food that's intended for humans, and indeed you're not allowed to have them around any place where there's food being prepared for humans. So crop farmers and dairy farmers simply can't have mice and rats around. The only options for getting rid of them are traps, poison and cats, and of these, cats are the most efficient, humane and environmentally sound. Therefore, using mouser cats is less cruel than using traps or poison.

But mouser cats on a farm is entirely different to feeding mice to your snake.

For starters, you don't specifically control the actions of the cat. Farm cats are usually pretty much half-feral, from my personal experience with them, so from a legal standpoint, the farmer can't be held directly responsible for what that cat eats.

(Same can be said of other cat owners... if the cat's out wandering, the owner isn't in direct control of what it's doing. However, if you have a cat that you know has a tendency to go out hunting and killing anything it can catch, you buy a collar with a little bell on it, so birds and such can hear it coming. Therefore circumventing unnecessary animal cruelty.)

Also, a mouse or rat on a farm has a chance to escape. It's not an instant death sentence to them, because a barn has many more escape routes than a sealed glass tank. Having a mouser cat on a farm is not instantly condemning all the mice and rats to death.

And just as the farmer isn't in control of the cat, he didn't choose to have mice and rats on his farm. If he specifically brought in mice for the sole purpose of letting his cats kill them, that would be animal cruelty. If the mice simply arrived of their own accord, as they do, then taking the most humane option possible to get rid of them is not animal cruelty.

The thing you have to remember is that feeding live animals to a snake is not an issue of whether you're forcing the snake to be human or not. The real issue is it reflects on YOU as a human. Whether you choose to deliberately inflict suffering on another living thing when you have the option not to.

[Xalia]

Anyone who's ever watched a cat catch, play with, bat around, and torture a live mouse /cannot/ say that mouser cats are a humane way to rid yourself of rodents...

I have horses, and the barn I keep them at has barn cats (which are /not/ feral, or even close, they're as likely to jump in your lap if you're sitting and beg to be pet as they are to catch mice). I've watched the cats catch mice and watched what they do with it after they've caught it. It's not pretty, and I wouldn't even think to call it humane.

[Shard]

Then you probably shouldn't visit www.whatjeffkilled.com...

[Shiolar]

So which do you think is more humane, Xalia? A cat that sometimes plays with its prey (but not always - cats can and do make clean kills), a poison that rarely kills quickly and even if it does eventually ends up getting into places where it harms other creatures, or traps that also aren't assuredly lethal?

There isn't really any humane way of getting rid of unwanted rodents, and I never said that cats were humane. Just that they're less inhumane than the other options.

I think really that you're all missing the point of what I'm trying to say: if you have the power to prevent suffering to any living thing, then you should do so. The moment someone invents a completely humane way of getting rid of unwanted mice and rats on a farm, then that's the one that any decent human being should use.

Of course, it says a lot about a person if they'll just stand by and watch while a cat tortures something it's caught... The cat doesn't know better, but we're supposed to.

[Midori]

Xalia has a good point I have seen and own cats that huntit's not a pretty thing when the hunt hardly what someone would call humane.

And I mean honestly how do you know if the mice where humanely killed. I mean what is humanely killed?

I'm not saying it's right to give live pray but it's alot nicer to the snake because they're rodent killers and when you keep one as a pet you should proviod proper mental stimulation. Because not matter how humanized a Snake it they're still wild and many people haven't breed snakes to be people friendly. You have to raise them to be people friendly.

[Shard]

I don't really agree that it's our duty to prevent animals from eating and playing with their prey. After all, the grace and agility of felines, the pack-intelligence and loyalty of canines, and the superb physical evolution of reptiles is pretty much only because they do what they do very well. I don't really believe that it can be considered 'cruel' to allow a predator to actually catch and eat its prey.

Begging the question of course, that why do we even keep pets, but that's a can of worms I'm so not going into lol. I prefer pets. I also prefer *predators* as pets instead of cute fluffy bunnies or mice. I did used to breed mice, and fed them to my snake when she was smaller, and I'd doubtless be breeding rabbits for food for her if I had the room and time.

What absolutely rankles me is using animals for *useless things* like testing shampoo and makeup and things that are essentially 'optional' for humans. But then again I think we ought to test out those things on people...

For myself, I enjoy watching the snake size up and catch its prey, and then somehow ... somehow... squeeze it down her throat. It really is amazing. But I don't want her to have to eat something that's not going to at least be of interest to her (ie dead). She's an 8 foot snake, and frankly she needs the exersize...

Anyway I don't want this to be an argument about morals and ethics. Everyone does stuff differently, so be it. If I was an animal in england, I'd probably be happier lol.

[Mystic Dragon]

>.> This looks like it belongs in the Debate and Discuss forum.

[Xalia]

Of course, it says a lot about a person if they'll just stand by and watch while a cat tortures something it's caught... The cat doesn't know better, but we're supposed to.

Nature at work is a very interesting sight, cruel or not. The mouse is dead whether the cat plays with it or not, and I for one am not going to rescue it so that it can get into my horses' food and leave it's droppings in there for my horses to get sick on. And I'm of the belief that interfering with nature is not something that people should do. It is in the cat's nature to hunt, and to play with it's food, so who am I to try to suppress thousands of years of predatory instinct? Just because we're too smart to have animalistic instincts anymore doesn't mean we have to suppress them in the animals around us.

And yes, this should probably be moved if the discussion is going to continue...

[Shiolar]

Xalia has a good point I have seen and own cats that huntit's not a pretty thing when the hunt hardly what someone would call humane.

The thing I hate about these discussions is that none of you will actually look at what I'm typing.

Cats are not humane.

Poison is not humane.

Traps are not humane.

Pick the least cruel.

It's cats.

I am NOT saying that cats are humane.

I AM saying that of the current options available, cats are the MOST humane.

It doesn't mean in any way that they ARE humane.

They are the lesser of three evils.

And if you were an animal OWNER in England, you'd prolly think differently, too. I suppose it all comes down to how we as people are raised, doesn't it? The British are animal lovers far more than any other nation on Earth, so obviously our opinions differ from that of everyone else on the planet.

You guys raise good points, but I still don't agree with them. And I said before that none of you would agree with me. It's probably more because of cultural differences than anything else.

From my perspective, animal cruelty is the most vile thing that a person can do, and that includes anything that one human can do to another. And it includes all animal cruelty. I tell my partner off if he doesn't kill insects humanely, too. If you're going to kill something, do it quickly so it doesn't suffer. And fascinating as live food may be, it's still cruel to the live food itself.

[Xalia]

The thing I hate about these discussions is that none of you will actually look at what I'm typing.

We're looking, Shiolar. We're reading, and we're not agreeing. There is a big difference between not reading and not agreeing.

I think we need to chalk this up to a difference of opinion and leave it at that. We could continue to argue this until the end of time and no one's going to change my opinion and we're obviously not changing yours, Shiolar.

Perhaps we can let this thread get back to its original topic which would be Cy's beautiful snakes. If you don't like the fact that she feeds them live prey then you don't have to check this thread.

[Cy]

Perhaps we can let this thread get back to its original topic which would be Cy's beautiful snakes. If you don't like the fact that she feeds them live prey then you don't have to check this thread.

Thank you Xalia =] I really don't want to be part of this debate... I love my snakes, and to me, they're just as loveable as any dog or cat. I know my snakes. They each have a different personality. Mine just happen to like a live meal.

Puppy just finished shedding today. I should have new pictures of him in his shiny new skin tomorrow =] And Tim comes home tonight, meaning we'll have pictures of Absinthe soon too. So yay! Pretty babies

=]