We Need more Newbies!!!

Astra · Post by **Astra** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:48 pm

Heres a random rant for you all.

So I was thinking about this a lot and I've been noticing that dragoning is kind of dying out, at least from how it used to be. Mind, there are still plenty of things to do, but it's practically impossible to get real candidates anymore, because nobody has the time to sit down and write a story the way we used to. The Flurry, which used to be one of the most popular clutches ever, is really struggling to get candidates this year, even though I've heard the images are gorgeous. Sure, we have giveaways and draws and stat sheet personae coming out our ears, but nobody really ever runs real clutches anymore, with the exception of Phe and a couple others. People just don't like sending candidates anymore.

I've been thinking alot about why this might be, and I've come to the conclusion that we're all turning into geezers (of course, Shard's a geezer, and she, or if you prefer IC, he, sends more candidates than the rest of us combined, but every random scientific study needs outliers, right?). The consequences of this are twofold.

The first and most obvious is lack of time. Most of us have been doing this for a good many years, and back when we were in middle school or whatever there was plenty of time for dragoning, and all was good. Although there's a wide variety of ages on these forums, I'd say that the main demographic is college-aged, with a fair few high schoolers and a fair few people in the "real world" to balance it out. The reason nobody writes candidates anymore is that we're all too bloody busy to sit down and right a good story.

The other reason is that everyone expects two darned much. You look at images by people like Sil and Phe and JKat and all the other uber-talents on the forum, and you think "I AM NOT WORTHY." People are so good at dragoning nowadays that it's insane. I consider myself average at best at drawing, yet if I went back in time with my current images to when I first started dragoning, people would bow and kiss my feet (well, maybe not, but one can dream). Even Falora's TCW dragons, which people once had rabid conniption fits to get at, now pale in comparisson to your average AD-baby. And so you think, in order to deserve a dragon of such amazing magnetude, I must either write a 10,000 page novel worthy of the pullitzer prize, or nothing at all, and so thats where all the giveaways come in. The AD is of course an exception, but like I said, all studies need outliers.

But as our art has improved over the years, so has our writing. I remember the days when I could stick a YWIAW candidate together in about a half hour, and come away with bronze or gold. Even after YWIAW went out of fashion, stories never had to be too terrible. In high school I would write candidate stories that were maybe a couple pages long, started on the day of Search, and gave a good impression of the character without going into novelesque backstory. Some people can still do this to a degree, but for me, all of a sudden I have to write pullitzer prize winning masterpieces for ALL my characters, and they take weeks to finally finish. For my Flurry candidate, I made my story short, sweet, and to the point, with just enough angst to say "look at my angst-girl." And it was wonderful.

But as wonderful as it was, I'm not sure writing shorter stories is quite the answer. I think the main problem is that the dragoning community has more or less stagnated. Sure, we get our newbies from time to time, but nine newbies out of 10 leave after the first week it seems like, and they're all part of the same age demographic as we are. Most of us started out dragoning in middle school / early high school. Now if a middle schooler attempts to join us, they are seen as annoying little brats who can't draw very well. But maybe that's what we need. We need junior dragoners. People who's images SUCK. People who don't follow the rules. People who we can (insert evil laughter here) mold into our own images so that they can grow and change and improve over the years just as we did, and that dragoning may live on for all eternity!

*country flag of your choice appears behind me and corresponding anthem plays in the background*

Okay guys I'm sorry this is so random, and long, I originally had it as a reply to the flurry thread but it got too long so I made a new topic. You may now return to whatever you were doing *scampers off*

Oh yeah, if you're one of those people who really really don't like making candidates and are just here for the drawing aspect, you can ignore this. I'm mostly talking about people who used to make candidates but now don't.

Post by **Dray** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:53 pm

X3 That, or try to find a way to make dragoning work around the characters that we have already... or something. I have such a magnitude of characters that I know I'm never going to touch again that it's rather depressing. I keep thinking "now why am I creating this new character when I have all of these old ones that were fun to write for? Why can't I use them again?"

>_> But that's just me. ^_^' I know that other people like to make up new things all the time. *gets off her soapbox!*

LakotaWolf · Post by **LakotaWolf** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:00 pm

I'll start posting links everywhere to lure in new flesh >:3

Well, okay, I won't post just randomly...

Samber · Post by **Samber** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:15 pm

I know time is an issue for me... and I am a newbie, dangit!

Heh.

I know I'd be sending out a lot more candidates if I had more time, but I always feel like I have to write so much, and I worry about not getting a fair return. I mean, all right, so I got my first gold with maybe one page of story. But I spent weeks on Ponevi, lots of effort, and he bonded a red which was... disappointing... since I'd been hoping for a brown or something. Don't wanna have that happen again, really.

What if -- and I know this is a little crazy -- we tried an actual size limit on characters and stories somewhere? RedVenture II(http://redventure.redwaller.com) limited character applications to 150 words for the whole description and bio, and 500 for the story, and while it's a pretty different kind of thing, those are some nice characters that we ended up with, and most applicants had time to write much more than the 3 entries max. I know I did.

And the characters all developed a lot within the 8-9 weeks the contest ran/is running. Maybe someone would like to try that here?

Kiara · Post by **Kiara** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:24 pm

Alternatively, because revision and exams are frying my brains, EVERYONE! Age your charries! Make them parents, greandparents, aunts, uncles! Give them youngsters-who-are-potential-candidates and have them terrorise them.... god knows if some of mine ever had kids I wouldnt want to be the poor kid...

I'll think of a serious comment when my brain isn't fried.

Mystic Dragon · Post by **Mystic Dragon** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:26 pm

Well, there's still plenty of new adoption sites out there. They just don't know about us. My suggestion is that we each go out, find a few random sites, and send them e-mails. "Join us! We rock!"

I've been trying to do that as much as I can already. :D

Shiolar · Post by **Shiolar** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:37 pm

I'm a newbie, too... Time is less of an issue for me, really. I can write short and random characters in the evenings, and work on long and complicated ones at the weekend. My problem is I don't like doing short ones much; I can create a character on the spot and give them enough personality to make them bond-worthy-ish in a handful of paragraphs.

But that just takes me so little effort that I feel guilty for it. Like Samber, I've written random characters and received gorgeous dragons for them that I feel they didn't really deserved, and worked very hard on stories and had them get a dragon that didn't really seem to match up to the amount of hard work I put into them. And I know a fair few people here don't like slogging through long stories at all...

So I don't write many long stories because I know most people won't want to read them, and I don't write short ones often because I'm never really happy with them. Samber's idea of having a size limit for characters is a good one, but it just wouldn't suit me. I'd be permanently unhappy with my work because it wouldn't be indepth enough for me.

But yeah, it does seem like we need more characters around. I dunno, maybe it' coz we all spend so much time drawing dragons and trying to run our own clutches? I know from my own experience that drawing images takes away from my writing time. I'm finding that running clutches out of Mirus is difficult solely because I can't get Candidates for them, and if I didn't enjoy drawing dragons so much, I'd probably give up on adopting dragons out altogether.

Maybe Dray's onto something with using characters that already exist, though; it might be a good idea to all double/triple/quadrupal bonding of characters. If you have a character you love writing, then they could just go on a grand tour of all the agencies, bonding a dragon at each one. The one:one ratio is a Pernese thing anyway, and we've all left that a long way behind. Not saying we should all switch to having our characters bond multiple times, but it certainly would allow for more characters out there, wouldn't it?

And we definitely need newbies to get things moving. I've been poking my... only online friend outside of these forums to join in. She's a good writer, and I know she'd like it, but she thinks she's too lazy to manage with running a website and updating pages all the time. Maybe that's part of the problem too? Dragoning is quite a lot of work, after all, which isn't something a lot of people really look for in an online hobby.

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:47 pm

You know, that's why I like haveing sponsor characters so much. They collect dragons you get to continue to write for a character you enjoy and their sposored dragons can in turn be candidates or sponsors! I mean honestly, how many dragons have Phe and Dray gotten by sending Dracothrope and Phoenix out to sponsor? And then they send the sponsors out to sponsor as well if they get ingrained deeply enough into the storyline. It works out really well!

My problem is that I have no time. I've honestly considered taking an extended absence from the Nexus many times, but my job is boring enough that I have to have /something/ to do while I'm waiting for students to show up and I really enjoy getting to collect dragons that require minimal effort. And every now and then I get inspired and I write something, but those now and thens are getting fewer and fewer recently. But I'm really a bad example to go by because I work longer hours than anyone else here and am taking classes on top of it!

Samber · Post by **Samber** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:50 pm

*pokes Xalia* No extended abscences until you hatch that clutch. I'll even write the hatching story for you if you want, but poor Thom's been waiting around for months, and I am dying to see what my first-ever candidate bonds.

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:56 pm

*blinkblinkblink*

...

Oh! The Tripaldi clutch! GAH! >.<

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:19 pm

The geezer's two cents:

I really want more newcomers too. The last time I brought anyone in, or at least tried, I was lambasted to the point of almost quitting. I certainly hope that any further efforts don't get that treatment from anyone.

... heeh. I like the idea of reusing older characters a lot, actually. I've been thinking, "my gawd I have a lot of Dawnlight characters. What if I rewrote some of them to really earn something?" Though they're all quite old, and... well, to be honest I have 1600 Dawnlight characters in existance and "only" about erm, 400 or so of them having been used for dragons so far. It's certainly not one of my particular difficulties to write new candidates though. I don't have trouble doing it. But I like this idea a bit.

Throw a wrench at old characters and see how they fare.

I've advertised at Pony Island, for newcomers, but I don't know if they've come at all from there. I'd like to see some of the other places, Shivuez market, orchard people, whoever, advertise to us. The last 2 or 3 people who've come out of lurking have come from those places, and obviously show some further interest, right?

Anyway, I think all valid points have been made. I have been trying to run regular clutches, and like everyone else have had real problems getting actually written candidates from anyone - even those who used to write a lot (both quality and quantity). It really disappoints me that the Flurry hasn't gotten filled yet. People love the images, but apparently they love getting for nothing, instead of rewarding Ty with the value of a well written candidate. I know you're capable of it, people. So come on, just one.

We've got candiate generators, name generators, image creators, everything to make it easier to make a new character. Something's gotta inspire you, right?

Keilin Alyr · Post by **Keilin Alyr** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:23 pm

I wouldn't say dragon adoption is dying out. Stagnating might be a better term, since I don't think most of us are thinking of quitting altogether, just busy with real life and all the timesinks and black holes it lays out for us. Hobbies are secondary things unfortunately.

Hmm... and maybe I should re-shape my personal perspective on myself. I'm not the 8-year loser with no website, no agency, and no artistic skills. I'm the 8-year perpetual newbie! I'm a community asset! *grins ridiculously*

Jokes at one's own expense aside, I definitely see where you're coming from. We're a close-knit community, we're a talented community (well, myself aside... *chuckles*), and many of us have refined our skills because of this community. It also feels self-defeating to write mediocre stories, so you get that binary extreme of trying to write above one's level to improve or compete or writing nothing at all (yes, I know time's a factor too).

I suppose the best advice I can give is what my boyfriend has been giving me regarding my depression. Take 5 minutes out to just do things, and don't be afraid to be embarrassed. It might make you feel guilty to just work for 15 minutes each day for a week to acquire a gorgeous dragon, but without that story, that dragon's not getting hatched. For those of us who wouldn't otherwise accept those stories, it's not an insult to your skill. There are dry spells in real life all the time.

Same goes for fledgling dragon artists. I know it's pretty darned intimidating with all those open clutches of spectacular dragons, but don't give up. Forget misconceptions of natural talent and inate skill. You'll probably be running tiny clutches of giveaway dragons for a while, but a skill doesn't improve without practice.

Lerial · Post by **Lerial** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:35 pm

I, personally, like the idea of taking old characters and giving them something new to do. I tend to feel like I write a character, get a dragon, and then... nothing. Sometimes there's flights and such, but that's not really as stimulating because we don't have to write about it, especially not as a male in the flight. Perhaps we should require preflight stories? I mean, we all know that it's easier to win a flight as the guy with a preflight, but the girls don't really have to have a story. They just need to be pretty.

I'm willing to give the old characters a try--anyone who wants to, I'm going to be lazy and not officially set up rules just yet, but send them to Firestone. Maiijeth's clutch needs to be filled and, since the bebbies are only half-old world, they'll probably be very happy to bond someone who's already bonded. Send them my way, if you wish.

As for the newcomers problem... *goes and posts a link to this forum on her devArt profile*

Myrror · Post by **Myrror** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:41 pm

Lerial wrote:Perhaps we should require preflight stories? I mean, we all know that it's easier to win a flight as the guy with a preflight, but the girls don't really have to have a story. They just need to be pretty.

Accually, don't the owners of the females have to write the Flight Story for any clutch? Why force them to write out a pre-flight AND a flight story as well?

Shard · Post by **Shard** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:48 pm

Generally the flying female owner would write the flight itself. I *vastly* prefer males flying for any of my females that have a story showing that they've bothered to read the story I provide. (i mean heck, I have a whole website for the flights...

) Whenever I send a female (and I've had a rotten track record for sending females to places which never actually run the flight... sigh) I try writing a story for her to show off what I'd like to have in a partner for her.

And Lerial? So... ... um, so Firestone? Halloween?

Lerial · Post by **Lerial** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:57 pm

Yes... Halloween.. >>;
It's number 2 on my dragoning to-do list. Number 1 being the image I owe Astra. And number 3, which for the moment is taking precedence though it's out of priority, is writing/updating.
Goal for this week: finish at least one all hallows dragon. *nods*

Midori · Post by **Midori** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:57 pm

Hmmmm newbies would be good but honestly maybe we should think of shrinking clutches since real life keeps throwing proverbial wrenches into thing more often then not!

also I should start reviving characters too I have a bunch hidden at Wu that never even went up on my wing list candidate board most of them are only half finished. Yet I don't like getting tomany candidates out because of lack of time on my part. Also I have candidates sitting around from clutches that haven't even added candidates in almost a year. x.x Wait two... years...

Astra · Post by **Astra** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:07 pm

I agree with what people have said about reviving old characters. I wonder what way we could do that that wouldn't result in having even MORE paging of dragons to do

Maybe things like SCD/AD's cyborware, except instead of using tokens, you "earn" them by writing a story about it, and perhaps the characters can get graphical items to use in story, if they don't want to modify the dragons themselves, or pets and things?

I have tons and tons of plot lines regarding existing characters (the wedding of Thaid and Rowena sticking out in my mind, I was going to have a clutch in honor of it but I'm not even sure their dragons are compatible, but I still want to do something to honor their weddingness...). And, of course, Astra and Elano are going on all sorts of adventures, but nobody knows about it because their stories are "over." Of course, I partially fix this by referencing old characters in new candidate stories a ton (Rowena was the single handed revival of Thaid's character, though he does appear to an extent in Elano's story). But I'm beginning to run out of (good) new ideas for characters, at least for the canon ones for my world, I mean, there are always the fair few who bond a dragon and live at New Hope or Greystone and really don't do much because they're "extras" in the movie of dragon-life, but they're not very fun, are they? There must be SOMETHING cool to do with old characters!

PS Lerial the eyeball in your avatar is sexay. I've been taking to drawing anime eyes randomly all over my notes lately. I think I have an eye fetish

Xenoqueen · Post by **Xenoqueen** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:13 pm

Well, when the Hathian/hydra clutch appears in one of my bays, the adults of those hatchlings will be very much affected by writing accompaniment, so I'd be happy to take "old" characters for that... heck, I already take old characters for sponsor-candidates... but I know I'm also one of the few places that doesn't have to beg for candidates, so maybe I better not. ^^*

Lerial · Post by **Lerial** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:28 pm

Astra wrote: PS Lerial the eyeball in your avatar is sexay. I've been taking to drawing anime eyes randomly all over my notes lately. I think I have an eye fetish

XD I do that too. I have an obsession with eyes and hands. As in with friends of mine I'll just grab their hands and stare for like, half an hour. I really shouldn't do that with some of them, but whatever.

Cacopheny · Post by **Cacopheny** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:34 pm

A big part of my problem (and I'm one of the people who doesn't adopt out; I only writes for candies! XD ) is that every time I write a new character, I run out of time and inspiration for an old one. I have so many wonderful plots going with old characters, plans and twists and fun stuff, but how do you keep writing that while still trying to keep up with new stuff?

And then when I throw something together for a new dragon, that doesn't have a major (or even minor!) plot attached, I feel bad, because I know that dragon (though a cool image) will have no story, no point. I'm a writer, not an artist, at heart; I prefer to write, but that writing has to have plot or it's no fun. Having a character with no plot is like... the epitome of sadness for me. I do it-- I have a few characters who exist almost solely to adopt dragons, though they're only sponsoring characters-- because I'm greedy for pretty pictures, but I don't do it much. I've just gotten to the point where I have to limit my inflow of dragons, or I'll not have any time for my fun megaplots ;.; Hence why I don't do most of the giveaways and don't send candies to a lot of agencies.

The idea that people can multiple-bond, go to a hatching when they've already bonded once, appeals to me. Or having the bonded dragon bond someone else, too. Or something. Then I could at least have something to work towards, story-wise, to get me further before everything falls flat because I'm too busy scrambling for the next due date-- and something to work with, rather than having to come up with new plots.... Sponsorship additional dragons isn't always enough, either, because there isn't always a plot point to sponsoring, while there sometimes is more of a plot point to bonding. Not always, but sometimes.

I do agree about shrinking clutch sizes, though. How are we supposed to fill clutches that are 50+ big, with the amount of time and typing-power we all have? XD

Heh, can you believe when I first started dragoning, I thought I'd never have more than a few characters? : P But then, that was when I only really knew about Avengaea, and expected every plot to be a megaplot....

Well, there's my two cents. Dunno what it says that everyone else hasn't said, except my own personal writing woes.... XD

Xalia · Post by **Xalia** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:54 pm

You know, I think that's why I've been leaning toward sponsoring rather than bonding recently...because bonding just seems so final. Character finds dragonbond, whoo, they live happily ever after...on to next story. There's no fun with the dragon other than flights, and lets face it, I just suck at/really don't like having to write anything for flights unless they're premated so I know who they're going to end up with...

If a bonded dragon could go out and find a bond of their own and that bond could find a bond of /their/ own it would probably make me a whole lot more likely to write up candidates because I usually have inspiration to write for a new dragon but give up because I have nothing interesting to do with them!

Shiolar · Post by **Shiolar** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:40 am

Well, since I like the idea of allowing bonded dragons and riders and old characters in general to go out and bond again, I'm gonna allow it at Mirus. Hint hint hint.

The way it looks to me, really, is that a bond, instead of being a one to one relationship, is more a powerful mental link between the two bondee's. In which case, there's no reason why you can't form a bonded group or whatever. And... thinking about it in terms of my own characters, it doesn't always have to be a case of deliberately going out to bond. Say I grab Kathamus, the leader of Mirus, and send him off to one agency or another for a completely unrelated reason. Have a nice plot around it. And then boom, he happens to be there at the time of the hatching at said agency and attaches another dragon. The nice thing about old characters is you already know them and know how to write for them...

I suppose, also, that it makes sense to either adopt out dragons as the OABP does, or else have a deadline for Candidates; it means the clutch is exactly the right size for the number of Candidates received, so there's no issues with the clutch not being filled. Although from an in character point of view, it doesn't make much sense. "Hey, come to Mirus because we've got a load of eggs. We don't actually know how many there are, but we're sure it'll all be just fine." It doesn't sit right, really... But what else can you do?

Astra · Post by **Astra** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:17 pm

Multiple bonding on my world really doesn't sit well with me (with a few exceptions, ie Thaid), because I see bonding as a lifetime commitment between two partners; in fact, the bonding ceremony was originally created by the wild dragons as an elaborate marriage ceremony. However, just as you can still have a husband and lots of male friends, I see nothing against being bonded to a dragon and having lots of sponsorlings on top of that.

I think that the reason Phe is the only person who gets candidates is because the AD is the only place that has hatchings on a regular basis so it's the only place where people can be somewhat confident that their dragon will, eventually, bond. Other places, however, never have hatchings because they don't get any candidates. It's a vicious cycle, really. Although, on the subject of old characters, I wish there was some way we could still use our characters when they're sitting as characters elsewhere. I can't tell you how many times I've had exciting things to write about my characters but I can't because I'm waiting for months on end for the clutch they're at to finally hatch (*coughkilliancough*).

I know that Raython is fully capable of bonding again, and so can Storm Mark breed on top of that, because that was one of the caveats set down by Sil to make up for the fact that he couldn't breed. I'm not sure why I've not taken advantage of that yet, since Raython is a main character, although his plotline has rather stagnated lately (ironic).

So does anyone (specifically, Yakima, JKat), have a problem with characters that bonded from you going offworld to sponsor or double bond?

Asha Wermyst · Post by **Asha Wermyst** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:59 pm

.....I don't mind double-bonders. Send 'em in (also a riser..). I don't do sponsorships (yet) so that doesn't matter.

Mystic Dragon · Post by **Mystic Dragon** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:49 pm

Hathians naturally have an option of double bonding, so anyone with one of them can easily go out to get another bond. However, I tend to refrain from double bonding because I /like/ making up new chars. If I really want to continue a plot with an old char, then I just write it! Or make up an RP, as it often is.

Astra · Post by **Astra** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:35 pm

my only question is the people I already have dragons from ... would THEY have a problem if characters bonded to their dragons went elsewhere? I would very much love to see Astra and Elano bond/sponsor others, and since Averone's mine I can do whatever I want with her, but I wouldn't want to offend JKat if Darae is totally anti-double bonding or whatever.

Kitsuneko · Post by **Kitsuneko** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:31 pm

I like double-bonding. I've allowed it pretty much from the beginning at Darkling Dawn. In fact, were it not for my losing internet, I would probably throw some double-bondings into some of my hatchings to get them to fill faster.

Strangely, I have few double-bonded personas of my own, though. o_0

JKatkina · Post by **JKatkina** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:46 am

:3 The way I see it, the dragon's creator gives away rights to the dragon's personality when she gives it away at the hatching. Personalities are meant to be helpful to the new owner, help them know their new dragon.

In other words, Dar's attitude about double-bonding is up to you. XD

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:29 pm

Just wanted to say I might have found someone, least she said she'd check this place out.

So....now the real question.

Do I get a cookie if she does join? I mean is a bit of warm gooey chocolatly goodness so much to ask for finding someone?

:D